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Subject: Redesign - to MR fans : do I deserve it ? rss

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Roberto Ullfig
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carthaginian wrote:
So, I tried your idea, and simplified it, maybe too much. Are those still functional or does the fact that the mentions 'stink', 'howl', etc. are missing breaks the system?


edit : I realize the chits that do not ask for a dice throw are confusing, I'll probably make them plain yellow, if I keep this idea. I'm not too sure I won't revert to the more dramatic expressions of the original


I understand that this makes the game easier to learn but I would really prefer the original design.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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carthaginian wrote:
maka wrote:
As with the monster counters, the most info you can give in the counters themselves the better. Compare the old map chits to the redesigned ones from magicrealm.org For veteran players it won't matter, but for beginners, it makes things much easier...

-Jorge


I missed that one! I see that they have put the monsters names and the dice number (?) on the chits. What's the point of having ""Howl"on there anyway, then? just put "3/ Goblins 6/Bats"... My feeling was that the tension between the howl and the actual monster was interesting, especially for beginners. Additionally, seasoned explorers would know what may be coming... kinda realistic, I thought...

Your thoughts?


You're right, just using the word is more thematic, but for practical reasons, I'd use both...

-Jorge
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Chakroun Karim
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I was wondering how big are the original native chits? same as the monster counters?
Tremendous = 1", Heavy = 3/4", Medium = 7/8", etc...

If not, why? does it have any functional/thematic meaning in the game?
 
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Mark W
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Nice Karim, but I have to agree that the chits lose a lot of flavor. What I would (and will) probably do is leave them the same, except with small colored dots - just as a small visual cue that hopefully makes life a little bit easier. The monsters and monster die would be colored as I described in my first post.

I really appreciate your whipping up those graphics.
 
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Mark W
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carthaginian wrote:
I was wondering how big are the original native chits? same as the monster counters?
Tremendous = 1", Heavy = 3/4", Medium = 7/8", etc...

If not, why? does it have any functional/thematic meaning in the game?

The natives are all the same 7/8" medium size. The reason is that while they vary quite a bit in toughness, they're all humans of regular human size (though you have to wonder if the Order are all 8-foot musclemen). Also, there is no "light" monster size, so what size would the light natives be - the size of a warning chit?
 
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Chakroun Karim
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NeonPeon wrote:
Nice Karim, but I have to agree that the chits lose a lot of flavor. What I would (and will) probably do is leave them the same, except with small colored dots - just as a small visual cue that hopefully makes life a little bit easier. The monsters and monster die would be colored as I described in my first post.

I really appreciate your whipping up those graphics.


I pushed the simplification a little too far, intentionally; I'd like to understand, how would it make life easier?

NeonPeon wrote:

The natives are all the same 7/8" medium size. The reason is that while they vary quite a bit in toughness, they're all humans of regular human size (though you have to wonder if the Order are all 8-foot musclemen). Also, there is no "light" monster size, so what size would the light natives be - the size of a warning chit?


hehe; my question exactly. I was making the light guys the same size as the medium chaps. sigh. I should've known when guys in the same clan have different weights.

here are the warning chits as they are now :

for now I have absolutely no visual clues as to what monster they'll summon. 12mm is very small

The Natives chits I started; I'll resize them, I think.

I color coded the clans; dunno if it's nice enough, I don't like the 'Order1, Order2, etc.' notation. Your thoughts?
 
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Mark W
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carthaginian wrote:
I pushed the simplification a little too far, intentionally; I'd like to understand, how would it make life easier?

Hmm, ok. Please bear with me for a long and overwrought post.

It would allow you to roll a die, glance at the tile you're occupying, and quickly determine whether or not the monster die roll even applies to you. More often than not, the die roll does not affect you. If you're in a tile with many chits, it would allow you to focus on the few that apply.

Example: I just fired up a game of Realmspeak and walked into the Ruins. The chits are: Altar and Dank C - both only apply to monster roll 2 (orange). The monster roll is 5 (green). If I were playing the tabletop game without this color scheme, I would have to look at 5 on the setup sheet and think to myself, "Is there Dank C or altar in row 5...hmmm...I see Dank M..no Dank C...and no Altar...OK, all clear!" Then I might think, "OK, well what CAN these chits summon? I need to decide whether to flee or not." My eyes then climb up and down the entire setup sheet for a good 15 seconds as I try to find any instance of "Dank C" on the sheet, unaware that it only appears once, in row 2! Even as an experienced player I do this sometimes. For newbies who are already overwhelmed by the game's complexity, it's extra time and brainpower wasted.

With the colored dots on these chits, I would roll my 5 (green face on die) and glance at the Altar and Dank C chits. They each have orange dots and nothing else. I quickly and clearly see that no monster appears this turn. Then to answer the question of what CAN appear, I only have to look at the orange row (monster roll 2) on the setup sheet. My eyes are scanning roughly 1/6 of the sheet (and they don't have to move up and down, which can be dizzying ).

Now I moved my White Knight to the Pine Woods. The chit is Ruins W (yellow dot). Monster Roll is 3 (yellow). Crap, wolves are coming. In this case, even as a newbie without the colors I could quickly find that wolves appear. Still, with the colors, I wouldn't have to scan up and down the entire sheet to find what can possibly appear in the future, not knowing that there is only one Ruins W.

Now I'm in the Mountain tile. Oh my - the Lost Castle! This tile now has Flutter 2, Howl 5, Cairns 5, Stink M, Hoard 6, and Pool 6. Dangerous place. This tile is now kind of information overload. The monster roll was 3 (yellow) again - which chits summon monsters? Among all these chits are many colored dots, but only one of the colored dots is yellow - the Pool. So I focus on that chit and realize that the octopus shows up.

Now try to figure out the universe of monsters these chits can summon. As a newbie, this could take you literally minutes. The Howl chit can summon Bats (6, purple), and goblins (3, yellow). The goblins won't appear because you're in mountains, but even if you have to scan over that row on the sheet, at least your search has been narrowed. Also the yellow mountain and grey cave sections on the sheet can be taken advantage of (i.e. don't even look at the grey section if you're in mountains). I won't go through each chit one by one.

Well, hope I got my point across.

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Chakroun Karim
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NeonPeon wrote:
Well, hope I got my point across.


yup. colored dots it'll be ! and some shapes for the color-blind.
thank you very much for bearing with a noob!

NeonPeon wrote:
monster roll 2 (orange). The monster roll is 5 (green).


are those colours choices arbitrary, for the sake of the example, or they have some reality ? (i.e. used in realmspeak, or elsewhere) if so, do you have the entire list?

 
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Jorge Arroyo
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NeonPeon wrote:

Well, hope I got my point across.


Hey, the color dots seems like a great idea. It doesn't directly give the names, but it makes it much easier to see what monsters can be summoned.

I don't mind the names because I think any information that is available, shouldn't be obfuscated for the sake of theme. It just makes it more difficult and time consuming, and MR is already a long game.

But the dots seem like a good compromise...

-Jorge
 
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Chakroun Karim
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maka wrote:
NeonPeon wrote:

Well, hope I got my point across.


Hey, the color dots seems like a great idea. It doesn't directly give the names, but it makes it much easier to see what monsters can be summoned.

I don't mind the names because I think any information that is available, shouldn't be obfuscated for the sake of theme. It just makes it more difficult and time consuming, and MR is already a long game.

But the dots seem like a good compromise...

-Jorge



I had to modify the shape of the sounds and site chits, it was too crowded. Even now, I'm no too sure. Now I have to try to understand the Set up Chart, to try and streamline it. Is there a custom one that's considered a reference I could start from?

Karim
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Mark W
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carthaginian wrote:
are those colours choices arbitrary, for the sake of the example, or they have some reality ? (i.e. used in realmspeak, or elsewhere) if so, do you have the entire list?

They were totally arbitrary color choices for the sake of the example.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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carthaginian wrote:

I had to modify the shape of the sounds and site chits, it was too crowded. Even now, I'm no too sure. Now I have to try to understand the Set up Chart, to try and streamline it. Is there a custom one that's considered a reference I could start from?


Those look great! I don't think there's a custom setup card. I re-did the monsters part to try the setup "tray" but didn't change it much...

-Jorge
 
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Mark W
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carthaginian wrote:
I had to modify the shape of the sounds and site chits, it was too crowded. Even now, I'm no too sure. Now I have to try to understand the Set up Chart, to try and streamline it. Is there a custom one that's considered a reference I could start from?

I love these chits! I actually like that the chits are shaped differently. This should make them easier to separate during setup.

I don't know of any custom setup sheets.
 
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Chakroun Karim
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I hope I got it right :

It's quite bigger than the original one, I think I'll make a two-parts setup chart to allow for the trays.

All critics are welcome!
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Jorge Arroyo
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The Setup Card looks excellent. The only problem I see with it is that normally, you would put not only the monsters in those spaces, but also the treasure cards for each site.

But I think the game would gain on functionality if instead of separating all the treasure cards for each site at the beginning, there would be a treasure deck from where you would draw the necessary number of cards after reching a treasure site. This has the advantage that the cards could be full size instead of small cards which are difficult to handle and shuffle.

On the other hand, when treasures get discarded on the board, the size could be a problem. A system of matching tokens could be used in this case (like the unfinished encounters in Runebound) to place the treasure card outside the board with one of the unique tokens, and the matching one on the clearing where the treasure is.

-Jorge
 
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Mark W
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Wow, That's beautiful! So much easier on the eyes than the original. I take it you already know that the monster/native icons should be shown on each box, so you know where to place them.

I don't have a better suggestion, but I keep thinking the cave icon looks a bit like a rainbow or an arch that you could just walk under, or something.

I like Jorge's suggestion on the treasures and spells. There is definitely a tradeoff there, but a deck of cards would reduce setup time, which is a big deal if the goal is to streamline the game - setup time is a popular complaint. Furthermore, the cards' larger size would allow you to include much more text on them - they could be fully self-contained. (Normally you have to refer to the rules quite a bit, especially as a noob.) They could potentially feature artwork even!

On the down side, you'd need matching tokens as Jorge said. I'm not sure how you'd handle natives' treasures. You'd probably put one token on the appropriate native section on the setup card. Hopefully that wouldn't be too clumsy. Another con is that part of me likes how the treasures and spells are predetermined - it's not a rational thing - but it feels like what's there is there. Logically I know that drawing from decks is equivalent. Despite these cons, the big cards win IMO.
 
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Chakroun Karim
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NeonPeon wrote:
Wow, That's beautiful! So much easier on the eyes than the original. I take it you already know that the monster/native icons should be shown on each box, so you know where to place them.

I don't have a better suggestion, but I keep thinking the cave icon looks a bit like a rainbow or an arch that you could just walk under, or something.

I like Jorge's suggestion on the treasures and spells. There is definitely a tradeoff there, but a deck of cards would reduce setup time, which is a big deal if the goal is to streamline the game - setup time is a popular complaint. Furthermore, the cards' larger size would allow you to include much more text on them - they could be fully self-contained. (Normally you have to refer to the rules quite a bit, especially as a noob.) They could potentially feature artwork even!

On the down side, you'd need matching tokens as Jorge said. I'm not sure how you'd handle natives' treasures. You'd probably put one token on the appropriate native section on the setup card. Hopefully that wouldn't be too clumsy. Another con is that part of me likes how the treasures and spells are predetermined - it's not a rational thing - but it feels like what's there is there. Logically I know that drawing from decks is equivalent. Despite these cons, the big cards win IMO.


The monsters Icons aren't finished yet, I'm trying to have all the pieces coming up together so as to avoid big mistakes. Your critic about the cave icon is founded, I think I found a better idea.

Jorge : about the treasure cards, I understand the purpose, but I can't help thinking the tokens are too fiddly; there are lots of treasures, and you would have to search the matching token each time you dispatch the treasure on the map?

On the other hand, If you're right about the sizes of the cards, I could try to cram all necessary information, and art (!) on smallish cards like the ones in Pillars of the Earth (43*68mm) so as to avoid to refer to the manual. of course I'd do the same for the spells. Now I have to see how much information is needed and wether or not I can cram it in there. folding cards and "treasure" sleeves?

and then think hard of the size of the board...

edit : do the treasure cards that are proposed on download here have all the information on them?
edit2 : could you also please point me out the card(s) that would be the most information-heavy?
 
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Chakroun Karim
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maka wrote:

On the other hand, when treasures get discarded on the board


Jorge, could you point me to the section of the manual that details this part? or even better, explain it to me?
 
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Roberto Ullfig
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It might be useful to have sections on the setup card for the garrison natives as well.
 
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robo wrote:
It might be useful to have sections on the setup card for the garrison natives as well.


do they need to be aligned to the dice throw rows?
 
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Mark W
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carthaginian wrote:
Jorge : about the treasure cards, I understand the purpose, but I can't help thinking the tokens are too fiddly; there are lots of treasures, and you would have to search the matching token each time you dispatch the treasure on the map?

In my experience you rarely have more than a few piles of treasure on the map for the entire game. Others' mileage my vary however.

Quote:
edit2 : could you also please point me out the card(s) that would be the most information-heavy?

Here's one that's very information-heavy:

FLOWERS OF REST: During Daylight, this card instantly activates all
fatigued chits in its clearing, but when it activates a chit it causes the chit’s
owner to fall asleep until Sunset. He skips his turn (if he has not already
taken it) and he cannot block or be blocked or summon monsters. At Sunset
he returns to normal, and all of his fatigued action chits are rested at no cost
(wounded chits are not affected). This effect occurs only during Daylight and
only if he has one or more fatigued action chits - the flowers have no effect
after Sunset, and they have no effect if all of his action chits are active and/or
wounded. This card also supplies Gold color magic to everyone in its
clearing.
1. Characters can fall asleep only when they are in the clearings, not when
they are on roadways.
2. If a character is affected by the Flowers of Rest and the Wither curse at
the same time, his chits cannot be activated or rested and he does not fall
asleep. As soon as the Wither curse is removed, the Flowers of Rest has its
normal effect.
 
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Mark W
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NeonPeon wrote:
In my experience you rarely have more than a few piles of treasure on the map for the entire game. Others' mileage my vary however.

Although, you'd have to use these tokens any time you trade with natives who have treasure, or loot any treasure site, so you may need more than I initially anticipated. Would definitely vary with number of players too - I rarely play with more than 2 or 3 players personally.
 
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Mark W
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carthaginian wrote:

BTW, I had the idea of red-face-up tremendous monsters having a "skull" attack icon, to indicate insta-kill. Regular attacks are H3, T4, etc. but the insta-kill attack would be [Skull]4 for example. What do you think?

Also, and you may have realized this already, maybe the monster roll 1 monsters/natives should not be red, so there is no confusion with the red-face-up tremendous monsters.
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Jorge Arroyo
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carthaginian wrote:
maka wrote:

On the other hand, when treasures get discarded on the board


Jorge, could you point me to the section of the manual that details this part? or even better, explain it to me?


For example, if you find a treasure that is too heavy for your character, you have to leave it on the clearing. You then place the card on the actual clearing (the "cards" that come with the game are just a bit bigger than the counters).

The token mechanic would be no problem in these cases, but I can see it being problematic for the native groups...

Maybe for treasure sites it wouldn't even be necessary to keep each pile of treasure cards after looting. Just put the undiscovered treasures back into the deck and shuffle. For the natives, this wouldn't be possible, because once you trade, you look at all the cards they have... Maybe you could just make medium sized cards, and instead of two sections on the setup card (monsters and natives + spells) have three sections, one for each. Then the spaces for the cards could be a bit bigger...

-Jorge
 
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Chakroun Karim
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NeonPeon wrote:

Here's one that's very information-heavy:

FLOWERS OF REST: During Daylight, this card instantly activates all
fatigued chits in its clearing, but when it activates a chit it causes the chit’s
owner to fall asleep until Sunset. He skips his turn (if he has not already
taken it) and he cannot block or be blocked or summon monsters. At Sunset
he returns to normal, and all of his fatigued action chits are rested at no cost
(wounded chits are not affected). This effect occurs only during Daylight and
only if he has one or more fatigued action chits - the flowers have no effect
after Sunset, and they have no effect if all of his action chits are active and/or
wounded. This card also supplies Gold color magic to everyone in its
clearing.
1. Characters can fall asleep only when they are in the clearings, not when
they are on roadways.
2. If a character is affected by the Flowers of Rest and the Wither curse at
the same time, his chits cannot be activated or rested and he does not fall
asleep. As soon as the Wither curse is removed, the Flowers of Rest has its
normal effect.


Wow! would it be possible to redact it in a way concise enough so as to encapsulate all information on the small original chit??


NeonPeon wrote:
In my experience you rarely have more than a few piles of treasure on the map for the entire game. Others' mileage my vary however.

hmmm. you wouldn't need to know what treasure is on the map? you wouldn't need a chit for "flower rest" one for "sacred grail", one for "glowing gem", etc..? in which case you'd need a bag full of treasure tokens

NeonPeon wrote:

BTW, I had the idea of red-face-up tremendous monsters having a "skull" attack icon, to indicate insta-kill. Regular attacks are H3, T4, etc. but the insta-kill attack would be [Skull]4 for example. What do you think?


nice !

NeonPeon wrote:

Also, and you may have realized this already, maybe the monster roll 1 monsters/natives should not be red, so there is no confusion with the red-face-up tremendous monsters.


I was thinking of coloring the chits in keeping to the dice color, what do you think? the Tremendous Troll would then be outlined blue on the light side, with a blue background... the Tremendous Dragon would still be red, with the Demon in green...

side question : Would notoriety, fame, gold tokens would be a good idea in this game?
 
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