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Subject: Redesign - to MR fans : do I deserve it ? rss

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Mark W
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I could have sworn I mentioned this, but apparently I did not...

I was thinking about the idea of removing writing from the game. I don't know how feasible that would be - consider the move action. The move action would be difficult to represent with chits. I mean, you'd need a lot of chits: several for each tile on the map, and several "1-6" markers. Examples of move actions:

Move-High Pass-3
Move-Deep Woods-2

(I'm kind of thinking "out loud" here...)

And considering there can (theoretically) be 16 players in a game, several hired leaders, the Witch's familiar....that's a lot of chits.

On the other hand, since this remodelled version of the game would be "print and play" as opposed to a packaged game, you could say that players only print out as many chits as necessary for their group. You might only play with 3 or 4 players, for example.

Still I'm afraid that's a lot of chits! Is there anything we could do? I'm wondering if we could get by without denoting the tile to which we are moving, for MOST move actions. For example maybe denoting Move-4 would be sufficient most of the time. I'm looking at a randomly generated map in Realmspeak right now. There are only four clearings on the entire map where there can be any ambiguity. In other words, unless you're in one of those four clearings, Move-# will suffice.

Which brings us to the problem of handling these ambiguities, as uncommon as they might be. I wonder if instead of having a token naming the tile, you had a "same tile" or "adjacent tile" token ("same" on one side; "adjacent" on the flip side)...So every time you move you'd place a Move-X token, and underneath that you'd flip the same/adjacent tile token either face up or face down, appropriately. I believe this would handle all ambiguities.

And of course that brings us to another problem (sigh...hehe). Remember that your actions are hidden from the other players. If you're placing two tokens for a move, well it's quite obvious that you're placing a move as opposed to, say, an alert. Sure you could have a dummy counter that you place underneath all non-move actions, but that's starting to get a bit ridiculous. :| Maybe writing is just simpler.

Why is writing a four-letter word anyway? Scrabble is a very mainstream game, and it requires pencils and paper.

Well, there's my thoughts on paperless actions. Any ideas are welcome.
 
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Chakroun Karim
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I think I read about it in another thread; It made me think, along the lines of a player board; something that I see as an expanded character board. It's all very murky yet, what with me not having even read the whole rulebook...sry. Do you think it would be feasible to lay down all possible actions in all situations in a neat table; with numbers 1-X horizontally and the type of action vertically?.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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NeonPeon wrote:
I could have sworn I mentioned this, but apparently I did not...

I was thinking about the idea of removing writing from the game. I don't know how feasible that would be - consider the move action. The move action would be difficult to represent with chits. I mean, you'd need a lot of chits: several for each tile on the map, and several "1-6" markers.


I'be been thinking about that, and one solution, if you're doing orders with cards (just place them face down in front of you in the correct order) you can have order decks with many copies of all the orders plus some way of identifying clearings.

Maybe instead of an absolute identification, a relative one could be used. One possible way is by using cardinal directions (I think you can easily divide all paths in the game in the 8 basic directions). Or maybe by using clearing numbers. This was discussed before and it has the disadvantages that sometimes you can move to two clearings that have the same number (on two different tiles). A possible way to differenciate between movement within a tile and movement out of a tile (if needed) may be just placing the card upside down...

-Jorge
 
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Chakroun Karim
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update : Monster chits, combat and normal sides


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Mark W
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Once again, very nice. I like the skulls.

I wonder if there is a better way to differentiate the monster stats graphically...? I was thinking, maybe a boot icon for movement (see Dungeoneer), if it wouldn't look too silly. I don't know about the others, especially weapon length. I guess the attack is pretty obvious since it has a damage level.

I agree with your decision to remove weapon length entirely for all the zero-length monsters. Monsters with non-zero weapon length are pretty much exceptions to the rule.

FYI, both sides are actually used in combat.
 
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Mark W
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maka wrote:
Maybe instead of an absolute identification, a relative one could be used. One possible way is by using cardinal directions (I think you can easily divide all paths in the game in the 8 basic directions).

The orientation of the map may cause confusion when moving by cardinal direction. What if each path out of a clearing were marked by a color or symbol?
 
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Chakroun Karim
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first drafts for weapons and horses :


using DIY-friendly octagons instead of round counters


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Chakroun Karim
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and a first draft of the char. chits. I changed some of them to fit my tastes...
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Mark W
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Very nice horses and weapons. I'm a little less certain about the characters - I prefer the original symbols. For example the Pilgrim symbol just doesn't feel right in that funky style. Definitely a good job though - just a difference of opinion on style.

If you do go with those character symbols, you'll have to redo the character cards, too. (That's probably obvious, but just sayin'. )

I also prefer the original rapier style for the thrusting sword.

Any reason why the damaged suit of armor isn't "tapped" like the other armor pieces?

Looking forward to seeing more!
 
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KK Su
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carthaginian wrote:
I think I read about it in another thread; It made me think, along the lines of a player board; something that I see as an expanded character board. It's all very murky yet, what with me not having even read the whole rulebook...sry. Do you think it would be feasible to lay down all possible actions in all situations in a neat table; with numbers 1-X horizontally and the type of action vertically?.


I designed a player board some time back with the idea of eliminating writing down daily actions. Perhaps this was the thread you read:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/157638
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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TaleSpinner wrote:
carthaginian wrote:
I think I read about it in another thread; It made me think, along the lines of a player board; something that I see as an expanded character board. It's all very murky yet, what with me not having even read the whole rulebook...sry. Do you think it would be feasible to lay down all possible actions in all situations in a neat table; with numbers 1-X horizontally and the type of action vertically?.


I designed a player board some time back with the idea of eliminating writing down daily actions. Perhaps this was the thread you read:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/157638


I missed that thread back then I think I'd rather use a deck of cards for each player with many copies of each action plus a lot of number cards and/or direction cards. In Fury of Dracula the Dracula player has a deck with all the locations on the map to plot his movement, and it works quite well...

-Jorge
 
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Chakroun Karim
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NeonPeon wrote:
Very nice horses and weapons. I'm a little less certain about the characters - I prefer the original symbols. For example the Pilgrim symbol just doesn't feel right in that funky style. Definitely a good job though - just a difference of opinion on style.

If you do go with those character symbols, you'll have to redo the character cards, too. (That's probably obvious, but just sayin'. )

I also prefer the original rapier style for the thrusting sword.

Any reason why the damaged suit of armor isn't "tapped" like the other armor pieces?

Looking forward to seeing more!


second draft for the weapons, improved the tremendous armor :


could you be more precise on your objections for the pilgrim symbol? is the "hook" too big? the crossing strokes too long?

historical truth set aside, to me the rapier feels too "renaissance" that's why I'm using the templar thrusting sword design. not a choice set in stone, though...

as for the various gameflow design choices, I'm sorry I'm not knowledgeable enough to enter the discussion. My feeling as a game noob is that if a solution more efficient than writing can't be formulated, writing is the way to go. Would it be possible to streamline writing?
 
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Chakroun Karim
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What about something like that as a player aid? :


 
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Mark W
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carthaginian wrote:
could you be more precise on your objections for the pilgrim symbol? is the "hook" too big? the crossing strokes too long?

Hmmm. The new Pilgrim symbol looks like a scrawled, almost tribal symbol.
I think it should be straight and orderly looking, if that makes sense.
 
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maka wrote:
I missed that thread back then I think I'd rather use a deck of cards for each player with many copies of each action plus a lot of number cards and/or direction cards. In Fury of Dracula the Dracula player has a deck with all the locations on the map to plot his movement, and it works quite well...

-Jorge


Yeah, that would work too, but I thought that it might blow out the number of cards that come with the game that already has tonnes of cards/chits. There's only 1 Dracula player in FoD, so 1 deck of Action Cards only. MR has 16 Characters, implying 16 decks of cards. I dunno when was the last time I saw a game with 16 different decks of cards.
 
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Chakroun Karim
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NeonPeon wrote:
The new Pilgrim symbol looks like a scrawled, almost tribal symbol.
I think it should be straight and orderly looking, if that makes sense.


It does, thanks! I'll try something.
 
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TaleSpinner wrote:
MR has 16 Characters, implying 16 decks of cards. I dunno when was the last time I saw a game with 16 different decks of cards.


Maybe Arkham Horror comes close? But you're right... Maybe the number of cards for each deck would have to be trimmed down... but how? 10 copies of each of the 9 orders is too much.... The only solution I see is to include a more sensible number (3-5?) and then some extras that all the players can share if needed. Each deck would also have more cards for orders that are usually used a lot (like move). Other orders like Alert would probably just need one card per deck... Maybe then a deck size of 30 cards would be possible (not counting the extra shared cards).

Then the question of how to identify clearings. I still don't know what is best: using cards with clearing numbers (and maybe turn the card upside down when you want to cross into a new hex) or direcction cards (with some kind of help on the tiles). With number cards, only 2 cards for each number would be needed, maybe another set could be shared too. So that would bring the total number of cards for each deck to 42 (hey! that's a nice number )

That brings the total number of cards for the 16 players to 672 (more counting shared order cards and spell/treasures). Is there any other game with that many cards???

Maybe, if the game would ever be re-released, it could come with 4-5 different characters and then add more through expansions...

-Jorge

-Jorge
 
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TaleSpinner wrote:
carthaginian wrote:
I think I read about it in another thread; It made me think, along the lines of a player board; something that I see as an expanded character board. It's all very murky yet, what with me not having even read the whole rulebook...sry. Do you think it would be feasible to lay down all possible actions in all situations in a neat table; with numbers 1-X horizontally and the type of action vertically?.


I designed a player board some time back with the idea of eliminating writing down daily actions. Perhaps this was the thread you read:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/157638


YES, yes, this is it. Thanks!
 
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-=[Ran Over]=-
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What is the theoretical maximum number of times that an action can be issued at once? For example, in the other thread, I saw "H 2 6 3" which indicates 3 moves.
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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rgmnetid wrote:
What is the theoretical maximum number of times that an action can be issued at once? For example, in the other thread, I saw "H 2 6 3" which indicates 3 moves.


Of course!!! I feel so stupid!

You don't need 10 copies of the Move card, just use one and then all the number cards... Forget my last post....

-Jorge
 
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Ryan Powers
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TaleSpinner wrote:
[ MR has 16 Characters, implying 16 decks of cards. I dunno when was the last time I saw a game with 16 different decks of cards.


World of Warcraft: The Boardgame

1 deck per character class (9)
4 quest decks/faction (8)
Event deck (1)
Treasure decks (4?)

That's 20+ before expansions.
 
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Chakroun Karim
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first draft for the hex tiles :


is the pilgrim better like that? :
 
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Justin N
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Just chiming in to say i love the look of what you've been doing here- that is, until these land tiles. Yeah, I get that you want to make them thematically similar in style to the rest of the redesign, with the cleaner and softer look, but these just look wrong (IMO, of course). While I don't think the originals are the end-all-be-all, I did like their 'hand painted' look. These just look too clean, and not very representative. Hmmm.

And I'll probably get flamed for this, but here goes. For the people trying to get rid of the writing of orders, perhaps you go the Game of Thrones/Diplomacy route- just simplify and abstract it, and use counters for everything. Use generic 'move' counters and decide where to move when it's your turn, etc. Sure it might make the game easier, but honestly, the game is hard enough as it is for most people. Like I said, it worked for GoT, and IMO, it made the system pioneered by Diplomacy actually playable- it could do the same for MR (though you'd still have to do something about he combat rules...).
 
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Chakroun Karim
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quixotic wrote:
These just look too clean, and not very representative. Hmmm.


You're right, I'm trying something else..

(it seems stupid, but I only realized I had took a wrong turn after uploading the pic)
 
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Chakroun Karim
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Thanks, maybe tomorrow I'll wake up as Michael Menzel and I'll have the skill to do it as I'd like to...
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