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Subject: FF4 vs Doom changes playtest rss

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Francesco Nepitello
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Just for the record, I played tonight a 3-player game using the Doom and FF4 changes, and guess what? I won with the FF4 anyway...

BUT, I don't think this had anything to do with the FF4 being too powerful. Doom seemed very strong with the new change, and I avoided him twice turning down the challenge. The second one didn't count though, as getting that last headline gave me the victory.
My victory over the X-Men player (Avengers were last) had more to do with a lucky combination of headlines and turn order in the last turn, that gave me the time to get two high scoring headlines, leaving the X-Men without enough points available to catch me.
The new fixes seemed good though: enough punch to the FF4 without that uber combo, and a better looking Doom. We'll try again.

Francesco

P.S.
Now that the design stage is so far off that the game could have been designed by another person, let me say that we had tremendous fun! With 3 players the game time was just right with plenty of action, a fantastic round of combat with Cap America giving that last KO to Ultron (!!) after Thor was blasted to oblivion... ok, the game isn't perfect (there are also a few objectionable cards in the mix) but it was fun!
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Jorge Arroyo
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Francesco Nepitello wrote:
Now that the design stage is so far off that the game could have been designed by another person, let me say that we had tremendous fun!

To me this is what really counts, and fix or no fix the game is just loads of fun

BTW, I just read at the Fortress:Ameritrash web site that Nexus couldn't renew the license with Marvel and that means the game won't be reprinted. Any comments about that?

I guess this also means no expansions... That's a shame...

-Jorge
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Bruce Moffatt
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Francesco Nepitello wrote:
Just for the record, I played tonight a 3-player game using the Doom and FF4 changes, and guess what? I won with the FF4 anyway...
*snip*
The new fixes seemed good though: enough punch to the FF4 without that uber combo, and a better looking Doom. We'll try again.

Francesco
Thanks for posting and providing feedback, Francesco. Would you please tell us what changes in the rules you used while playing this session?

Francesco Nepitello wrote:

P.S.
Now that the design stage is so far off that the game could have been designed by another person, let me say that we had tremendous fun! With 3 players the game time was just right with plenty of action, a fantastic round of combat with Cap America giving that last KO to Ultron (!!) after Thor was blasted to oblivion... ok, the game isn't perfect (there are also a few objectionable cards in the mix) but it was fun!
It must be a strange feeling to be playing a game like someone else designed it...
 
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Francesco Nepitello
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Scrat wrote:

Thanks for posting and providing feedback, Francesco. Would you please tell us what changes in the rules you used while playing this session?

We remove Doom's handicap (he can choose to boost villains as everyone else), and changed the Doombots masterplan to give Doom a henchmen rating of 2. I must say that I don't think any of these changes affected very much our game.

Sue's support power can be used only on Defend, and Reed's power only on Attack. Minor effect on the game (I didn't lose fights anyway), but I think the change is quite appropriate.

Francesco
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Francesco Nepitello
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MrSkeletor wrote:
Is this the changes where Doom gets henchmen and stuff?
I have to say I don't like it, way too much of a change from the text the game has.

Consider that the changes we're discussing are as official as you perceive them to be...

MrSkeletor wrote:
I think the following 2 changes are all that is needed:
* Sue storm's powers revert to how people were originally playing them - ie her power takes effect on dice with the icon AFTER re-rolling.

The reason why we made that fateful ruling decision is that I don't like this application for practical reasons...

MrSkeletor wrote:
* Not FF related, but if you take a story action you MUST manipulate the story track. Makes that part of the game at least a little interesting, otherwise players have no reason to give opponents VP.

I think that the Story track is a little interesting as it is, but I know many feel otherwise. I am afraid that making the manipulation mandatory would prevent many players to use the track at all.

Francesco
 
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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Just for the record, Franscesco, I played a 3-player game yesterday and I went all the way as Doctor Doom playing with the ORIGINAL RULES. Yes, I kicked the F4 in their righteous behinds 3 times and became the rightful ruler of Latveria. And it wasn't my first time either.

I frankly can't understand all the Doom complaints. He 's ultra powerful.
I can't understand the F4 "hyper combo" complaints either. It 's too expensive.

Anyway, in my opinion, I don't think the changes are needed. It 's all a matter of the right mission/villain/masterplan in the right time and mostly it 's all a matter of LUCK, people.
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Francesco Nepitello
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maka wrote:
BTW, I just read at the Fortress:Ameritrash web site that Nexus couldn't renew the license with Marvel and that means the game won't be reprinted. Any comments about that?
I guess this also means no expansions... That's a shame...

Don't tell me... yesterday I opened my 'Marvel Expansion' file, and while nothing was developed yet, we had some good ideas.

Were did you read the comment? I can't find it.

Francesco
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Francesco Nepitello
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Boofus wrote:

I frankly can't understand all the Doom complaints. He 's ultra powerful.
I can't understand the F4 "hyper combo" complaints either. It 's too expensive.

Basically, that's my opinion too. But I must say that the general consensus seems to indicate otherwise. AND, I don't like Sue and Reed's power ability to obliterate completely an otherwise good roll. I would prefer to have them not be able to stack.

Francesco
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Jorge Arroyo
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Francesco Nepitello wrote:
maka wrote:
BTW, I just read at the Fortress:Ameritrash web site that Nexus couldn't renew the license with Marvel and that means the game won't be reprinted. Any comments about that?
I guess this also means no expansions... That's a shame...

Don't tell me... yesterday I opened my 'Marvel Expansion' file, and while nothing was developed yet, we had some good ideas.

Were did you read the comment? I can't find it.

Francesco

This thread, page2 (in the middle): http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=...

One of the things I really wanted to see were more scenarios and more complex ones. Did you have any plans for that?

-Jorge
 
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Jorge Arroyo
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MrSkeletor wrote:
With the 'proper' rules, you had to remember how many dice you rerolled (since they counted for Sue's power) and then those same dice could once again count if you rolled more 'reroll' symbols, which seemed odd to me.

I thought the proper (post FAQ) interpretation was that Sue's power negated boosting...

FAQ wrote:

The Invisible Woman should apply her “Invisible Force
Fields” ability after her opponent rolls dice, but before
any additional rolls due to dice boosting are made. In this
way, her ability negates dice boosting.


Edit: BTW, I agree with Mr. Skeletor about the Story track. I'd like it better if moving it was mandatory. It's funny because in the Spanish rules, there was no change, it was optional as printed...

-Jorge
 
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Ken B.
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Also, if you think about it, if manipulating the story track became mandatory, it would be a little tougher for the FF4 to hoard as many cards without any drawbacks. Sure, they can get cards other ways but if they need to boost their hands quickly, they're going to take some story actions. Might as well have that give players some points if they keep that up.
 
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Brian Moyers
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franklincobb wrote:
Also, if you think about it, if manipulating the story track became mandatory, it would be a little tougher for the FF4 to hoard as many cards without any drawbacks. Sure, they can get cards other ways but if they need to boost their hands quickly, they're going to take some story actions. Might as well have that give players some points if they keep that up.

I don't follow or I missed something, but when you manipulate the Story track you don't have to score a card as you can choose to rearrange the track in your favor. Is that not correct?
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Beefy wrote:
I don't follow or I missed something, but when you manipulate the Story track you don't have to score a card as you can choose to rearrange the track in your favor. Is that not correct?

When you do a Story action, you can:

1) move the entire track down 1, dropping a card

2) move a story card belonging to YOUR team to the front (i.e. to the next to drop spot)

If there is no Story card that belongs to your team, and there is a Story card belonging to an opposing team in the "next to drop" spot, taking a Story action originally forced you to drop off the front card, awarding an opponent with 1 VP.

Then the FAQ made the Story track/action just plain silly devil . For the record, we play that you MUST do 1 or 2 from above, can't just take a SA to draw a Res card. Hence the "Shopping Spree" late in Day 2 in my recent Session report: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/312111
 
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Brant Benoit
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Boofus wrote:
Just for the record, Franscesco, I played a 3-player game yesterday and I went all the way as Doctor Doom playing with the ORIGINAL RULES. Yes, I kicked the F4 in their righteous behinds 3 times and became the rightful ruler of Latveria. And it wasn't my first time either.

I frankly can't understand all the Doom complaints. He 's ultra powerful.
I can't understand the F4 "hyper combo" complaints either. It 's too expensive.

Anyway, in my opinion, I don't think the changes are needed. It 's all a matter of the right mission/villain/masterplan in the right time and mostly it 's all a matter of LUCK, people.

I agree. I've utterly stomped the FF4 on so many occasions I find the complaints laughable.
 
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Ken B.
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Beefy wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
Also, if you think about it, if manipulating the story track became mandatory, it would be a little tougher for the FF4 to hoard as many cards without any drawbacks. Sure, they can get cards other ways but if they need to boost their hands quickly, they're going to take some story actions. Might as well have that give players some points if they keep that up.

I don't follow or I missed something, but when you manipulate the Story track you don't have to score a card as you can choose to rearrange the track in your favor. Is that not correct?



That's true, Mr. Moyers. For some reason I was thinking that they might have to modify it in some way that would help their opponent. And if you think about it, it still would--by putting their card up front, if it's allowed to fall off as part of board maintenance, no points would be scored.

It also raises the question what if FF wants to take a story action and none of their story cards are face up...if you were 'forced' to do one of the two, you'd actually have to choose to score an opponent's card for them.


Brian, you guys squeezed in several more games recently--has FF been dominating them? I remember they were always in the mix in our games but didn't always win.
 
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Kallen McInerney
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MrSkeletor wrote:

* Sue storm's powers revert to how people were originally playing them - ie her power takes effect on dice with the icon AFTER re-rolling.
* Not FF related, but if you take a story action you MUST manipulate the story track. Makes that part of the game at least a little interesting, otherwise players have no reason to give opponents VP.

I have to agree here. These are the cleanest changes whilst having the desired effect. They merely tighten the wording on existing rules and can be put in the errata, case closed. Better than taking a sharpie\texta to my game components. You going to add them to the "ideas for fixing the richards" thread?
 
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Andreas Ludwig
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Quote:
I've utterly stomped the FF4 on so many occasions I find the complaints laughable.

Then it seems you didn't have an opponent who used this team to their full potential. The killer combo is unstoppable in combat if you start card farming early on.

Quote:
Brian, you guys squeezed in several more games recently--has FF been dominating them? I remember they were always in the mix in our games but didn't always win.

It seems that two things are always mixed up by some folks:

The killer combo of the FF doesn't mean that this team is going to win every game, it simply means that it removes any fun from the one and only core aspect of this game: combat

The Reed/Sue combo allows to reduce good rolls by any villains to zero and therefore makes fighting them futile since bad rolls don't harm them anyway.


 
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Brian Moyers
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franklincobb wrote:
Brian, you guys squeezed in several more games recently--has FF been dominating them? I remember they were always in the mix in our games but didn't always win.

Not by a long shot. The X-Men usually win our games by virtue of Wolverine's healing factor and Jean's sheer power. Maybe we aren't playing the FF the "proper" way but in our games all the teams seem balanced. The only balance issue I have is that the Avengers never win a game. They don't have much ability in generating enough plot points without some luck and that seems to hamstring them.

I never noticed the manipulate the story track text actually says you may move YOUR teams card to the last track. Whoops! That makes a difference if you play with the rule that you must take a story action and your team has no cards on the track. Man, it's good to read the boards every now and then.
 
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M Kron
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This is getting OT, but... I win pretty regularly with the Avengers. The key seems to be investing your PP in Hulk/Thor (depending on what's on the board) and then going for big headlines, which they can usually handle, even when you inevitably roll a ton of trouble. I don't usually have many PP to spare(Hulk Smash powerup helps, as does Iron Man's armor upgrade), generally enough for 1 ally over the course of the game, but they can rack up the VP if you play them aggressively.

As for F4, as was already mentioned, the issue isn't that they always win, the issue is that the Reed/Sue combo makes it impossible to win, or even formulate a strategy, in combat against them. The changes suggested are intriguing. Anyone a photoshop wiz who can upload some files that we can print as labels to affix to the cards?
 
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John So-And-So
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kronmc wrote:
The changes suggested are intriguing. Anyone a photoshop wiz who can upload some files that we can print as labels to affix to the cards?

I'm not gonna claim I'm a "wiz", but I love to photoshop and I have the materials (own the game) and a scanner. If Francesco would like to post his choice of wording, I'll upload something nice ASAP.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Francesco, how would one handle Arch-Nemesis token if:

- "new" Doom has completed his 2nd Masterplan (so had Mystical Armor + Doombots, which would give him a Henchman rating of 2)

- Kingpin is also in the game

Previously there could be no ties, since VPs, then # Henchmen decided AN and no Nemesis had the same # of Henchmen.

Kingpin vs New Doom = nobody gets Arch-Nemesis?

Or would/could one say that Doombots give Doom 2 Henchmen, but for AN purposes his Henchmen rating remains 0?

1st option seems really bad, especially late in the game, 2nd option keeps Doom where he is on the AN pecking order, last, so wouldn't change the game as such.

Yeah, I like to seeing (Arch-)Nemesis in play more, rather than less !
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Rauli Kettunen
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Okay, we played a game using the following modifications (to rules as written):

New Doom (can boost, Doombots instead give 2 Henchmen)
Once per Combat Sequence universal blanket
Pre-FAQ Sue
Reed's Power is like "Innocent Bystanders", i.e. all 2 Hits -> 1 Hit; stil costs 1 Resource card.

1st turn

Nothing Doom related, X-men did fail their headline though, so Doom would be Arch-Nemesis.

2nd turn

Reed + Sue CRUSH Doom. True, the 7 Threat Dice rolled -> 3 Trouble, reduced by 1, leaving only 2 trouble -> left only Toad to play shake .

3rd turn

Reed + Thing CRUSH Doom. This time they first beat a boosted Dr. Octopus, then defeat Doom with ease. Doom chose Yellow, so Reed saved his power to Outwit.

4th turn

Doom defeats Torch + Reed with Sue in support! Torch started, rolled 1 hit on his Red attack, took a hit in both Doom attack and Outwit. Doom had Init vs Reed, chose Red, while Mr. Fantastic chose typical vs Doom choice, Yellow. 1 KO each going into Outwit. Doom rolls 2 Hit, 2x 1 Hit and blank. Reed rolls 3x 1 Hit and blank. It's a tie, whereas under original Reed power wording, Doom loses. Doom keeps to Red, Reed tries Orange, Doom rolls 4 single hits, Reed only rolls 2 hits on 5 dice, and attacker wins ties on attack.

Since we were playing Onslaught scenario (+1 Threat to Danger, need 20 VP at the end of 4th turn), F4 lost the game.

Should be noted that there was another fight on turn 3, with Reed going for a Headline solo, which lead to him facing 11 Trouble ! So he was facing:

Enchantress + Skrull Warriors (No Ready Power use) + Crushing Blow (4 attack once) + -1 Outwit

Reed had 1 PP on Colossus and pretty much the only reason he lost the fight was the Skrull Warriors. The fight itself lasted 4 combat sequences.
 
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M Kron
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Dam the Man wrote:
Okay, we played a game using the following modifications (to rules as written):

New Doom (can boost, Doombots instead give 2 Henchmen)
Once per Combat Sequence universal blanket
Pre-FAQ Sue
Reed's Power is like "Innocent Bystanders", i.e. all 2 Hits -> 1 Hit; stil costs 1 Resource card.
***
2nd turn

Reed + Sue CRUSH Doom. True, the 7 Threat Dice rolled -> 3 Trouble, reduced by 1, leaving only 2 trouble -> left only Toad to play shake .

3rd turn

Reed + Thing CRUSH Doom. This time they first beat a boosted Dr. Octopus, then defeat Doom with ease. Doom chose Yellow, so Reed saved his power to Outwit.

***

Should be noted that there was another fight on turn 3, with Reed going for a Headline solo, which lead to him facing 11 Trouble ! So he was facing:

Enchantress + Skrull Warriors (No Ready Power use) + Crushing Blow (4 attack once) + -1 Outwit

Reed had 1 PP on Colossus and pretty much the only reason he lost the fight was the Skrull Warriors. The fight itself lasted 4 combat sequences.

Francesco's fix has the virtue of preventing use of the Richards's powers on outwit, where they really skew combat. It also has the virtue of preventing the powers from being used in combination. That comes with the cost of going farther from the text of the cards, but if you are willing to modify Doom to the extent you did, and treat containment like innocent bystanders, it seems like you might want to see if you get more mileage out of Francesco's suggestion.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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I'll agree that Francesco's suggestion might be better, however, here's why I don't like it:

I prefer the players to have a modicum of choice, more rather than less, so "once per combat sequence" gives a choice of applying the power in 1 of 3 phases, while Francesco's sugg. only makes the player's choice: yes or no. And no, this doesn't mean, since I said more rather than less that unlimited usage is the way to go, most other characters already suffer from a limitation to their combat powers.

Also, if you are going to make Reed affects the attack (fist) roll, I think Sue should do the same. True, this would potentially defeat Doom's fist roll badly, but the current suggestion (Reed for Fist, Sue for Defense, if I understood it correctly) has the possibility of nerfing 2 of 3 rolls for Doom. Admittedly, 1/36 of Sue working, if you're going to play as written, instead of the FAQ-Sue.

Lastly, why shouldn't Reed & Sue be able affect Doom's Outwit? Looking at it on surface it might seem weird, how do you affect Super-Genius, but if you dig a little deeper, it seems to me at least, that Outwit is a blanket term for Outmaneuver/-anticipate. Looking at the Yellow combat powers (only checked Hero and Nemesis cards), you can see Flight, Flying Combat, Heightened Reflexes, Telepathy, Bouncing Ball, etc. Reed using Containment against Doom's Yellow power could be seen as Reed preventing Doom from seeing what is going on in a particular direction, stopping him from using whatever Doom's Super-Genius has come up with, explanations are only limited to one's imagination. Ditto for Sue's Force Fields.
 
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Francesco Nepitello
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Quote:
Or would/could one say that Doombots give Doom 2 Henchmen, but for AN purposes his Henchmen rating remains 0?

1st option seems really bad, especially late in the game, 2nd option keeps Doom where he is on the AN pecking order, last, so wouldn't change the game as such.

2nd option is the way to go. So the '0' on Doom's reference sheet has a use...

Francesco

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