Jeff Michaud
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I don't seem to be the only one who in a math trades to offer multiple (and identical) copies of the same item. Especially for things like Tanga items. So partly I'm curious how many others who use the OLWLG may be interested if I added some support to the OLWLG to make it easier.

Right now the multiple copies have to be listed as separate items. Then users who want it have to "add" all copies and likely create a dummy item for duplicate protection (which they may be doing anyway if others are also offering the game), and you yourself in the OLWLG have to compose a want list for each one (ie. checking the same boxes for each copy you are offering).

What I'm thinking of doing is to add an optional "options" section for each item, and an option to specify that you have a given number of copies of the item for trade. Such as:

%Options%
Copies: 3
%End%

in the item description. The OLWLG would parse that and when generating the summary and official want lists would generate it appropriately so anyone who wants such an item would have a chance at one (and only one) of the copies.

I was thinking of making a change to TradeMax to support global dummy items, but believe I can do it without changing TradeMax at all. What I'm thinking of generating is, for let's say userb who wants item 123-FOO oferred by userj:

(userb) %123-FOO : 123-FOO-copy1 123-FOO-copy2 123-FOO-copy3
(userb) 999-ITEMA : ..... %123-FOO .....

and for userj:

(userj) 123-FOO-copy1 : .....
(userj) 123-FOO-copy2 : (identical to copy1)
(userj) 123-FOO-copy3 : (identical to copy2)

There would be no "123-FOO" in the official summary, only 3 with the -copyN suffixes. So in theory this actually could still be used even in a MT where the OLWLG use is not required.

The "Copies" option is essentially just syntatic sugaring to make it a little easier for all when it comes to multipe copies being offered by the same person.

Before I implement it was wondering if anyone sees anything I missed... and whether it's actually useful to anyone else other than myself?

Jeff
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Chris Okasaki
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I see two issues.

First, somebody who was using this would need to be especially careful about using duplicate protection. It could be confusing because you usually only need duplicate protection if you are mentioning the duplicate items on more than one want list. But here you might be creating only a single want list, but then the want list itself is being duplicated. So it might look like you are mentioning the wanted items in only one place (and therefore don't need duplicate protection), when you actually do. I'm not too concerned about this, because presumably somebody advanced enough to use this feature should be familiar enough with math trades to handle it.

The second issue is potentially more serious. What if I deliberately want multiple copies of your item? I think there is no way for me to say this. For example, if you are offering multiple identical gift certificates, I would be certainly be interested in getting more than one of them. Even if they are games, I might want more than one copy. After all, you apparently did in acquiring them! Less facetiously, I am currently looking at acquiring multiple copies of Genji as gifts for my family (my family crest is on some of the cards).

Edit: typo
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Jeff Michaud
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cokasaki wrote:
The second issue is potentially more serious. What if I deliberately want multiple copies of your item? I think there is no way for me to say this. For example, if you are offering multiple identical gift certificates, I would be certainly be interested in getting more than one of them. Even if they are games, I might want more than one copy. After all, you apparently did in acquiring them! Less facetiously, I am currently looking at acquiring multiple copies of Genji as gifts for my family (my family crest is on some of the cards).
Actually this I consider to be a non-issue as the workaround is simple... if I'm offering something that I think individuals may actually want more than one copy of (like the identical gift certs), don't use this feature and simply list them as separate items. However most stuff that are real games most folks don't want more than one copy of, except for those maybe trying to do significant enough trade ups such that they could something they can turn around and trade away if it's a duplicate for them.

In any case, thanks for the feedback, and I have to go back and reread your 1st potential issue as I don't think I understood it the 1st time.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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fwiw, I've finished implementing this and ready to test in the next math trade.
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What happens when you list 3, but by the time the want lists are due, you only have 2 left? (if you traded 1 outside the math trade for instance) Now are you required to submit a blank list for the item so that you don't trade 3, and because of that you trade 0?
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Jeff Michaud
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Caledor wrote:
What happens when you list 3, but by the time the want lists are due, you only have 2 left? (if you traded 1 outside the math trade for instance) Now are you required to submit a blank list for the item so that you don't trade 3, and because of that you trade 0?
Correct... but that's pretty rare for that to happen in those 2 days, and it would that persons choice to complete the side trade before the results of the MT are final. One could also always indicate they have one fewer copies than they really have if they think they are going to get and complete side deals (after all what's the chance one will trade 5 copies of Buy Low Sell High, never mind 1 copy Also there is always another math trade if one decides to put themselves into the situation where they have to submit an empty want list. And of course if the MT rules allow one can always still list the item twice.

With some other changes I've been working on it may actually be possible to edit the quantity (decrease or increase) up until the deadline want lists are due.

The benefits imho outway the rare situation(s) that it would be a problem... it's a lot less work for both the person offering the items and the folks who may be interested in them.
 
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Chris Okasaki
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How does this interact with duplicate protection?

For example, if you offer three copies of Dominion, and I put your Dominion on my want lists for two of my items, could I end up with two copies of Dominion, even though I listed what looks like the same item on both of my lists?

Even more insidiously, if I offer three copies of Ticket to Ride, and I put your Dominion on my single want list for Ticket to Ride, could I end up with all three Dominions? Even though I put what looks like a single item on what looks like a single want list?
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Jeff Michaud
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cokasaki wrote:
How does this interact with duplicate protection?
No different.

cokasaki wrote:
For example, if you offer three copies of Dominion, and I put your Dominion on my want lists for two of my items, could I end up with two copies of Dominion, even though I listed what looks like the same item on both of my lists?
If my Dominion was item #123 (like the example in the base post) and your two items were items #400 and #431 what would be genereated would be:

(chris) %123-Dominion : 123-Dominion-copy1 123-Dominion-copy2 123-Dominion-copy3
(chris) 400-ITEMA : ..... %123-Dominion .....
(chris) 431-ITEMA : ..... %123-Dominion .....

and for jeff:

(jeff) 123-Dominion-copy1 : .....
(jeff) 123-Dominion-copy2 : (identical to copy1)
(jeff) 123-Dominion-copy3 : (identical to copy2)

You could only get one copy of my Dominion. If there were other Dominion's in the MT and so you had explicitly created a dummy item (unlike the auto-generated one) then you may have something like:

(chris) %123-Dominion : 123-Dominion-copy1 123-Dominion-copy2 123-Dominion-copy3
(chris) %Dominion : 777-Dominion %123-Dominion 888-Dominion
(chris) 400-ITEMA : ..... %Dominion .....
(chris) 431-ITEMA : ..... %Dominion .....

again thanks to dup protection you could only end up with one of the 5 copies.

cokasaki wrote:
Even more insidiously, if I offer three copies of Ticket to Ride, and I put your Dominion on my single want list for Ticket to Ride, could I end up with all three Dominions? Even though I put what looks like a single item on what looks like a single want list?
In this case what would be generated:

(chris) %123-Dominion : 123-Dominion-copy1 123-Dominion-copy2 123-Dominion-copy3
(chris) 400-T2R-copy1 : ..... %123-Dominion .....
(chris) 400-T2R-copy2 : ..... %123-Dominion ..... (identical to copy1)
(chris) 400-T2R-copy3 : ..... %123-Dominion ..... (identical to copy2)

and for jeff:

(jeff) 123-Dominion-copy1 : .....
(jeff) 123-Dominion-copy2 : (identical to copy1)
(jeff) 123-Dominion-copy3 : (identical to copy2)

So again you are safe.

However the case where it could present a problem if the user uses this functionality and doesn't know what it does, so we need to warn them of, is if let's say there were 2 copies of Caylus in the MT and you only put both of them on the want lists for 400-T2R and don't use dup protection because you only have them both on what you think is one want list, you could end up getting them both when 400-T2R is expanded to three items. For example:

(chris) %123-Dominion : 123-Dominion-copy1 123-Dominion-copy2 123-Dominion-copy3
(chris) 400-T2R-copy1 : ..... 7-Caylus 11-Caylus %123-Dominion .....
(chris) 400-T2R-copy2 : ..... 7-Caylus 11-Caylus %123-Dominion ..... (identical to copy1)
(chris) 400-T2R-copy3 : ..... 7-Caylus 11-Caylus %123-Dominion ..... (identical to copy2)

So yes, there is some rope that folks will be given to hang themselves, but I think if folks are using this functionality, and we document how it works and specifically give this as an example that you would still need to use dup protection... like I said, no magic going on here.. just syntatical sugaring
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Joe Huber

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JeffyJeff wrote:
However most stuff that are real games most folks don't want more than one copy of, except for those maybe trying to do significant enough trade ups such that they could something they can turn around and trade away if it's a duplicate for them.
Counter-example: I find Oasis a great source for game design parts; I'd always be happy to receive multiple copies.
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Wakefield Morys-Carter
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Just to clarify...since I wasn't sure from reading this thread...if you offer multiple copies of a game you do need to add duplicate protection. I've just participate in a math trade and two of my copies of Glory to Rome swapped for Citadels.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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Wake wrote:
Just to clarify...since I wasn't sure from reading this thread...if you offer multiple copies of a game you do need to add duplicate protection. I've just participate in a math trade and two of my copies of Glory to Rome swapped for Citadels.
if you had more than one copy of citadels on your want list for GtR (which I assume you used "Copies" on) or in general had more than one copy of something on your want lists and you don't desire to receive more than one copy then yes, you want duplicate protection.

The "Copies" functionality can only (and does) add in duplicate protection for those who put an item on their want lists that is using "Copies".

side note... ask one of your senders of citidels if they can hold the game until you can trade it in another MT and then have them ship it directly to your recipient to avoid double shipping. had to do that a couple times myself
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I'm experimenting with this in the current mock-trade. (best place to experiment right?)

And it could be because the tool hasn't sync'd again, but I don't see any indication within the tool that I have two copies.

 
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yaverot wrote:
And it could be because the tool hasn't sync'd again, but I don't see any indication within the tool that I have two copies.
olwlg is not real time with bgg so the olwlg wouldn't see it until next resync. in addition it really doesn't give any indication within the olwlg until you look at the "official wants" after the summary has been generated
 
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Ah, okay. Just seams weird that it hides "You're offering two of this" until so late in the process.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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JeffyJeff wrote:
cokasaki wrote:
The second issue is potentially more serious. What if I deliberately want multiple copies of your item? I think there is no way for me to say this. For example, if you are offering multiple identical gift certificates, I would be certainly be interested in getting more than one of them. Even if they are games, I might want more than one copy. After all, you apparently did in acquiring them! Less facetiously, I am currently looking at acquiring multiple copies of Genji as gifts for my family (my family crest is on some of the cards).
Actually this I consider to be a non-issue as the workaround is simple... if I'm offering something that I think individuals may actually want more than one copy of (like the identical gift certs), don't use this feature and simply list them as separate items. However most stuff that are real games most folks don't want more than one copy of, except for those maybe trying to do significant enough trade ups such that they could something they can turn around and trade away if it's a duplicate for them.
Is this the current behaviour for gift certificates? I ask because in a recent math trade there are 118 gift certificate items and several people have used the copies option to make as many as 10 available. I've got 55.6k checkboxes and hate to think what it would be like with even more gift certificates....

Since people can value their games, an automatic mode for accepting gift certificates without showing checkboxes might be useful.

http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/viewlist.cgi?listid=239949...
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Jeff Michaud
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there is no special treatment when using copies option.

it was suggested some method on an item by item basis to tell the olwlg that you want to not be duplicate protected. actually I think the suggestion was to on an item by item basis to tell the olwlg your personal max copies you would want of an item using the copies option which would be more complicated. but even just the simpler version it would be a checkbox somewhere (maybe step 4)
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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In the case of gift certificates, there could be a supply-side annotation

$20 Gift Certificate
%Options%
MultiCopies: 3
%End%

It is unfortunate that when someone is offering 10x $10 gift certificates, I can only get one of them.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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That assumes everyone would want as many gift cert (for whatever store(s) in the given case, there is no generic gift cert) as is being offered. I hate to make that assumption and MT's having to be rerun when someone is "surprised".

It also wouldn't solve the other case where it's a physical item such as multiple identical copies of a game, where most would only want one copy.

mlvanbie wrote:
In the case of gift certificates, there could be a supply-side annotation

$20 Gift Certificate
%Options%
MultiCopies: 3
%End%

It is unfortunate that when someone is offering 10x $10 gift certificates, I can only get one of them.
 
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Laura Gerard
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Could you let the want-er have the option to unduplicate-protect the copies so that he could get more than one if he wants too?

If that was the case, I would use it. Otherwise, I don't think I'll have any use for it.
 
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I've had another idea. Couldn't there be some way to optionally automate the opposite of duplicate protection for cash equivalent items? If offers of cash equivalent items such as gift certificates and paypal were to put in something like

$20 Gift Certificate
%Options%
CashEquivalent: 20USD
%End%

Then in step 4, it would give you the option to collect them together into one item to want, but it would allow it to match to more than one of your offers. Kinda the opposite of duplicate protection.

Of course you would have to have standard abbreviations for the different kinds of money around the world.

In step 3 you would still have to want individual items as you may like some but not all cash equivalent offers such as only wanting paypal or refusing to do business with Amazon but happy with all other offers.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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Question about allowing someone to receive multiple copies of a cash offer
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