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Subject: Box Cover Art... Why? rss

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Tim Harrison
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After reading the rules, I'm very interested in this game. But after seeing the box cover for this game along with the Decadence card, I'm sorry to say that it's highly unlikely that I'll purchase it.

Go ahead and call me a prude. I can take it.

My wife and 3 children are among the people I most frequently game with, and for some reason... oh I don't know why... I don't think my wife will be too keen on playing a game with naked women on the cover.

I just don't understand why a publisher would do such a thing. Do you really think more people (read men) will want to buy the game as a result of the 1980's style Boris Vallejo art? I personally think that far more will not buy the game as a result of the box art than vice-versa.

Perhaps Europeans aren't as easily offended, but as Scott said in the cover image's comments here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/324935

... this cover will not fly in the US/family market.

UPDATE: A larger picture of the cover can be found here:

http://www.boardgamenews.com/gamepreviews/sylla/large/sylla....

UPDATE 2: Just to be clear, I support the publisher's right to use whatever art it wants. I just think it is a horrible marketing move, at least in the U.S.

NOTE: For the same reason, I haven't purchased Blue Moon City either, another game that I'd buy in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the art.
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Jonathan Takagi
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In an interview I watched on TricTrac I think that the box art may change - they realized that they may have a problem with the American market.

If you look in another thread they have censored one of the cards, so I don't see why they wouldn't change the box art as well.
 
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Graham Smallwood
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According to this thread "http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/339109" the cover art is a collage involving the Decadence card itself, and the card has already had veils added to the dancers. So perhaps the cover art will inherit the same change.

The cover has the suggestion of nudity with only the (slightly disproportioned) muscular buttocks of a dancer. Calling you a prude is neither here nor there since everyone is entitled to their own opinions on art. And starting a thread to incite a discussion or possibly a boycott is the beauty of free speech. A further post could even discuss the beauty of the human form vs the objectification of women in either modern times or the times depicted. But seriously. It's a butt.
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
Perhaps Europeans aren't as easily offended...

No, they aren't. If you find this cover offensive, I would not recommend travelling to Europe anytime soon. In Germany, for example, you will find billboards like this on bus stations (where school childeren wait).
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Given that Cyril has already explained on the OTHER thread http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/339109 you started on this subject that there is a version available without a naked bottom, it isn't necessary to worry so much about bottoms!

There are three options for Sylla-interested people:

1) If you don't mind, or even actually like(!), the bottom, pre-order.

2) If you object to the bottom, but would like the game, wait for the US version.

3) If you want to post more about bottoms, try the RSP forum.

PS: L. Cornelius Sylla himself was very interested in bottoms, I hear, so thematically, bottoms are apt!
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Will DeMorris
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Sothis wrote:
Given that Cyril has already explained on the OTHER thread http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/339109 you started on this subject that there is a version available without a naked bottom, it isn't necessary to worry so much about bottoms!


Agreed. This is a non-issue.

-Will
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Dorque wrote:
But seriously. It's a butt.

Not just a butt! A ba-donk-a-donk butt.
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DaMilli wrote:
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
Perhaps Europeans aren't as easily offended...

No, they aren't. If you find this cover offensive, I would not recommend travelling to Europe anytime soon. In Germany, for example, you will find billboards like this on bus stations (where school childeren wait).

I prefer those german adds.

I think we can handle some nudity...
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Karis Shem
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On the american version of the cover, the lady will wear some clothes (light clothes, but clothes anyway). On the Europan cover, she will be naked.

Anyway, i just would just like to remind you that nudity was not seen as a problem in ancient Rome. Our goal was not to "tease" potential buyers, but just to reflect a simple reality...

REgards,
Cyril
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Greg Cox
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
After reading the rules, I'm very interested in this game. But after seeing the box cover for this game along with the Decadence card, I'm sorry to say that it's highly unlikely that I'll purchase it.

Go ahead and call me a prude. I can take it.

My wife and 3 children are among the people I most frequently game with, and for some reason... oh I don't know why... I don't think my wife will be too keen on playing a game with naked women on the cover.

[/size]

Yes, you are a prude, and if the rest of your countrymen can't handle a tiny picture of a naked backside in the bottom corner of a box lid then they're obviously all prudes as well. And while your in Europe, you'd better not go and look at Michelangelo's art in the Sistine Chapel!
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Tim Harrison
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Sothis wrote:
Given that Cyril has already explained on the OTHER thread http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/339109 you started on this subject...
My other post was simply asking about the different cards. It had nothing to do with the cover. As I stated in my original post (see the subject line), my primary concern is:

1) The box cover (hence the title of the post), not simply the card (which can easily be blacked out with a pen if I want), and until Karis replied above, I had read nothing (nor does the Ystari mention anything) about different box covers, only different cards.

2) If I (and others) choose not to purchase this game because of the box cover or the cards, that is our choice. I never said "change it." I simply said it was a poor marketing choice for the U.S. market. I stated that I believe Ystari will needlessly lose more sales in the U.S. market than gained because of that simple choice.

coxy_fc wrote:
Yes, you are a prude, and if the rest of your countrymen can't handle a tiny picture of a naked backside in the bottom corner of a box lid then they're obviously all prudes as well. And while your in Europe, you'd better not go and look at Michelangelo's art in the Sistine Chapel!
3) EDIT: Unnecessary Insult Removed

My "issue" with the cover is not simply a nude butt. It is the sexual objectification of women. It is what it teaches my children. It suggests to my daughters that a woman's purpose is to sexually gratify men, and it says to my son that he should look at women as objects. My respect for the dignity of womanhood will not allow that. (As a side note, my wife has told me numerous times that my desire to give my eyes and thoughts only to her is a very sexy trait.) If you hold a different view, so be it. I'm entitled to my view. And so are you.
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
Oh yes.... obviously. If you can't see the difference between a naked woman dancing provocatively in front of a man as he gazes upon her lustfully and Michelangelo's art at the Sistine Chapel, I truly feel sorry for you (and for your wife or gf, if you have one).

That's your interpretation, but I don't see what bringing my partner into this or 'feeling sorry' for her has to do with you, or what right you think you have to even bring that up, that reflects on you, not me.

If your issue was not simply the nude butt you should have explained that clearly in the first place. So now you're saying you wouldn't object to nakedness on a cover if it wasn't used provocatively? hmm I wonder...
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John Erickson
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WOW. This is an issue? For the love of God, dont turn on the tv. PBS has worse stuff than this.
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I find it interesting that the problem is the butt and not the poor sap who is about to get thumbs-down and be the source of a blood fountain.

You can put a little piece of tape over the butt (you could put a huge piece of tape over the whole woman, for that matter). But, if the woman wasn't there at all, would the cover then be acceptable? The graphic image of impending murder wouldn't break the deal?
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:

My other post was simply asking about the different cards. It had nothing to do with the cover. As I stated in my original post (see the subject line), my primary concern is:

1) The box cover (hence the title of the post), not simply the card (which can easily be blacked out with a pen if I want), and until Karis replied above, I had read nothing (nor does the Ystari mention anything) about different box covers, only different cards.

The image on the box and the image on the card are the same.

The publisher has already accepted and acted on feedback about the art. Good for you, Cyril!

GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
to her is a very sexy trait

Tim, you say your wife wouldn't like looking at the cover. I wonder what she'd say if she read this thread where her "sexy" preferences are discussed in a public forum.
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paulmond wrote:
I find it interesting that the problem is the butt and not the poor sap who is about to get thumbs-down and be the source of a blood fountain.

You can put a little piece of tape over the butt (you could put a huge piece of tape over the whole woman, for that matter). But, if the woman wasn't there at all, would the cover then be acceptable? The graphic image of impending murder wouldn't break the deal?

Hah That's a very good point but, as you probably realise, violence is acceptable, even normal, but nakedness is bad for our 'wives' and 'children'...
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
My "issue" with the cover is not simply a nude butt. It is the sexual objectification of women. It is what it teaches my children. It says to my daughters that a woman's purpose is sexually gratify men, and it says to my son that he should look at women as objects.

I'm not hear to argue either side of the debate, that has been done and I respect people's right to voice an opinion.

But on the point you raise above...

I don't think the nude box cover teaches anyone that a woman's role is to sexually gratify men. I also don't think that a young man can look at artwork on a box and plausibly argue that the box made him do something. Whilst we have brains I believe we have choice.

All I think it (nude box art) does do is depict a scene that was quite common in Rome in that time period.

Actually if anything I think a parent could use the box cover to teach there children what life was historically like in Rome and to illustrate the point of 'how far we have come' since those times.

What annoys me is that here in Oz I may not be given the choice of which cover I want. That is based on the presumption that we only get US based copies imported.

Should I get a copy of 'naked butt dancing lady' I will actually point it out to my 8 year old and say 'Isaac this box is a little naughty'. He will then laugh and I will then laugh as we roll around the floor together.

Of course after all the floor rolling laughter, I would engage him in a discussion about Rome and show him one of the many illustrated books I have on Rome as he will love the gladiator element.

You can vote for me at the 'Parent of the Year Awards' - www........

Alternately you can report me to my nearest police station at (02) 60..... shake
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Tim Harrison
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coxy_fc wrote:
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
Oh yes.... obviously. If you can't see the difference between a naked woman dancing provocatively in front of a man as he gazes upon her lustfully and Michelangelo's art at the Sistine Chapel, I truly feel sorry for you (and for your wife or gf, if you have one).

That's your interpretation, but I don't see what bringing my partner into this or 'feeling sorry' for her has to do with you, or what right you think you have to even bring that up, that reflects on you, not me.

If your issue was not simply the nude butt you should have explained that clearly in the first place. So now you're saying you wouldn't object to nakedness on a cover if it wasn't used provocatively? hmm I wonder...

You're absolutely right. I shouldn't have judged you like that. It was immature. I'm sorry.

And you are right, I should have been more clear about my preferences/objections.

Regarding nakedness on the cover if it wasn't used provocatively, it really depends. For one, I have no problem with the cards in Parthenon, and would have no problem with my daughter seeing them as well.

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Tim Harrison
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Sothis wrote:
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
to her is a very sexy trait

Tim, you say your wife wouldn't like looking at the cover. I wonder what she'd say if she read this thread where her "sexy" preferences are discussed in a public forum.
I actually discussed this issue with her earlier this evening and she told me to say that.
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Tim Harrison
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paulmond wrote:
I find it interesting that the problem is the butt and not the poor sap who is about to get thumbs-down and be the source of a blood fountain... if the woman wasn't there at all, would the cover then be acceptable? The graphic image of impending murder wouldn't break the deal?
No, it would not break the deal for me, because 1) the act is not shown (whereas the provocative dancing is), 2) we don't know for certain that he was going to get the thumbs down, and 3) I do not believe that a violent act, in and of itself, is intrinsically evil. There are cases when violence (and war) is just. For example, if an intruder broke into a man's home and threatened his wife, I believe the homeowner would have every right to defend his wife from imminent harm and shoot the man.
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
I actually discussed this issue with her earlier this evening and she told me to say that.

It's true: we are all different!

Me:
picture of dancing bottom thumbsup
husband discussing my reaction to bottoms online thumbsdown

By the way, there's one less bottom copy available. I've pre-ordered. Cyril, you better have them on the stand on Thursday 23rd!

cool
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
paulmond wrote:
I find it interesting that the problem is the butt and not the poor sap who is about to get thumbs-down and be the source of a blood fountain... if the woman wasn't there at all, would the cover then be acceptable? The graphic image of impending murder wouldn't break the deal?
No, it would not break the deal for me, because 1) the act is not shown (whereas the provocative dancing is), 2) we don't know for certain that he was going to get the thumbs down, and 3) I do not believe that a violent act, in and of itself, is intrinsically evil. There are cases when violence (and war) is just.
Okay, this is where you lose me. I agree the dancing scene could be a little problematic, because the dude is disgusting and the women are probably slaves, but it's in no way more problematic than the gladiator who is going to get stabbed to death by a sword (the thumb up was reserved for truly exceptional fighters only). Also note that the "violent act" should in no way be confused with justified violence, because the killing by gladiators or any other violence displayed in amphitheaters was done for enjoyment only.

Quote:
For example, if an intruder broke into a man's home and threatened his wife, I believe the homeowner would have every right to defend his wife from imminent harm and shoot the man.
Again I have to disagree. You should have the right to knock out the intruder, but in no way kill him (which I conclude from shooting someone, correct me if I'm wrong) unless the intruder carries a firearm himself.
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Simon Mueller wrote:
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
For example, if an intruder broke into a man's home and threatened his wife, I believe the homeowner would have every right to defend his wife from imminent harm and shoot the man.
Again I have to disagree. You should have the right to knock out the intruder, but in no way kill him (which I conclude from shooting someone, correct me if I'm wrong) unless the intruder carries a firearm himself.

I smelled a BBQ a few minutes earlier when the intruder comment was posted.

I've learned to not argue with an American about gun laws.

Those flames could get toasty anytime now. Let's all stay civil now or an Admin may make you fight to the death.
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Neil Thomson wrote:
Those flames could get toasty anytime now. Let's all stay civil now or an Admin may make you fight to the death.

Don't worry. I won't start it... gulp
 
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Neil Thomson wrote:
I've learned to not argue with an American about gun laws.
I wouldn't mind sensible citizen carrying guns, but a country which goes completely crazy after seeing a nipple on TV for one second shouldn't really allow its people to bear guns.
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