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Subject: Box Cover Art... Why? rss

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Chris Bailey
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If the original poster sends me his mailing address I'd be happy to send him a sharpy. Then if he ever gets a game with a butt or breast in it he can fix it. He might also want to keep his kids away from the museum. Talk about HORRIBLE! Breasts, penises, butts...a truly horrible place. Same goes for the library. The family that censors together, stays together.
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Scott Everts
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melissa wrote:
ScottE wrote:
Boy is that the truth. Plunging necklines barely holding in the goods, right there at child height in any supermarket in the US.

Oh my goodness, you're right.

Breasts and very small children have nothing to do with one another!

Unfortunately the children don't appreciate what they have until its too late.
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ScottE wrote:
melissa wrote:
ScottE wrote:
Boy is that the truth. Plunging necklines barely holding in the goods, right there at child height in any supermarket in the US.

Oh my goodness, you're right.

Breasts and very small children have nothing to do with one another!

Unfortunately the children don't appreciate what they have until its too late.

Oh the boys learn to appreciate it again alright...just takes them roughly 12-15 years to do so.
 
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Stephen Gassett
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Karis wrote:
Jay knows the US market better than me, and so he's probably right when he decides such things,.........

REgards,
Cyril

Well, judging from the responses so far in this thread, for this game at least, this is a theory that we may have to consign to the proverbial crapper. cool
 
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Tim Harrison
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ixnay66 wrote:
If the original poster sends me his mailing address I'd be happy to send him a sharpy. Then if he ever gets a game with a butt or breast in it he can fix it. He might also want to keep his kids away from the museum. Talk about HORRIBLE! Breasts, penises, butts...a truly horrible place. Same goes for the library. The family that censors together, stays together.
Hey Chris, I said it before, but I guess I'll have to say it again.

Most reasonable persons would acknowledge an obvious difference between a classical, dignified portrayal of the human figure and two slutty strippers dancing provocatively in front of a man with his legs spread wide open as he gazes upon them lustfully.
 
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
ixnay66 wrote:
If the original poster sends me his mailing address I'd be happy to send him a sharpy. Then if he ever gets a game with a butt or breast in it he can fix it. He might also want to keep his kids away from the museum. Talk about HORRIBLE! Breasts, penises, butts...a truly horrible place. Same goes for the library. The family that censors together, stays together.
Hey Chris, I said it before, but I guess I'll have to say it again.

Most reasonable persons would acknowledge an obvious difference between a classical, dignified portrayal of the human figure and two slutty strippers dancing provocatively in front of a man with his legs spread wide open as he gazes upon them lustfully.
The thing is for me it is all about context. I'm not 100% sure whether I think the box is appropriate or not and I am truly concerned about the objectification of women, although I think glamour mags and celebrity culture is far worse in this regard, but consider, this is a game that involves roman decadence as a theme. Withing the context of this I think that the rather lurid picture makes sense, it is inherently lurid and to some degree tasteless, but I think this is set against the noble ideal theme of the senators looking skyward at the top of the box. To me the boc cover juxtaposes the contradiction inherent in roman society on one hand they had some form of democratic rule for at least in this period. There were "noble" ideals at stake (reality might judge them to be less than ideal). This is contrasted with not only sexual depravity, but the idea of humans forced to kill each other for the entertainment of others. I think the art on the box front is a statement, the nudity I suspect is intended to provoke to some degree.

Now are you a prude? most definitely, but there is nothing wrong with that. If you want to protect your children I say go ahead, but I think the box raises interesting thematic questions about the nature of the roman republic and the society which spawned it, personally I would rather use it to spark an indepth discussion with my children than stop them from seeing it (mind you I don't know how old your children are). Each to their own.

Is it contributing towards the objectification of women? Honestly I don't know, it might and that is a concern, but this is a multifasceted issue and there are a lot of perspectives. I don't believe the intent is to objectify women, or get men excited about it, as I said, I think it is about contradiction. Sexuality is a powerful image and symbology around it is highly emotive (as you can probably tell from this thread).

Thank you for starting a discussion about it, I have found reading peoples opinions interesting.
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Stephen Gassett
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
ixnay66 wrote:
If the original poster sends me his mailing address I'd be happy to send him a sharpy. Then if he ever gets a game with a butt or breast in it he can fix it. He might also want to keep his kids away from the museum. Talk about HORRIBLE! Breasts, penises, butts...a truly horrible place. Same goes for the library. The family that censors together, stays together.
Hey Chris, I said it before, but I guess I'll have to say it again.

Most reasonable persons would acknowledge an obvious difference between a classical, dignified portrayal of the human figure and two slutty strippers dancing provocatively in front of a man with his legs spread wide open as he gazes upon them lustfully.
The trouble with this distinction between the two is that it is highly subjective at best. Sometimes the perception of what is art and what is pornography doesn't change much over time (e.g. the brothel paintings of Pompeii), but often it does. Francisco Goya's famous painting The Naked Maja was considered scandalous for its time (it was actually painted for a 'gentlemen's establishment' of its day), but is now viewed publicly alongside other great works of art in museums around the world. wow

(Moral: you'll have to come up with a better argument than this as to why a bum on a game box is offensive)
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Massimiliano della Rovere
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Are US people really so prude and prone to shock for some skin, when there is a lot of blood and worse things in tv, magazines and so on?
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Scott Everts
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masdero wrote:
Are US people really so prude and prone to shock for some skin, when there is a lot of blood and worse things in tv, magazines and so on?

No, but our media loves to make it look like that. Also helped by our politicians and rather vocal christian organizations.

Politicians love to spout "save the children" slogans. Remember the huge controversy on Grand Theft Auto's hidden sex scene (which didn't actually show nudity without a fan made patch)? Even though the game is about killing people & stealing. Nope, no one cared about that part, just the simulated sex!
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Massimiliano della Rovere
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ScottE wrote:
masdero wrote:
Are US people really so prude and prone to shock for some skin, when there is a lot of blood and worse things in tv, magazines and so on?

No, but our media loves to make it look like that. Also helped by our politicians and rather vocal christian organizations.

Politicians love to spout "save the children" slogans. Remember the huge controversy on Grand Theft Auto's hidden sex scene (which didn't actually show nudity without a fan made patch)? Even though the game is about killing people & stealing. Nope, no one cared about that part, just the simulated sex!

Caesar ad Cleopatra features an "Orgy" card.
What about it?

If the setting allows and forgives a "sex-related" bit, what's wrong? Romans had orgies and thank to the gods they had not that sex-repressive and -panicked way of thinking when sex is the subject; better sex than slaves, war or human exploitation!
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mmolus wrote:
Simon Mueller wrote:
Neil Thomson wrote:
I've learned to not argue with an American about gun laws.
I wouldn't mind sensible citizen carrying guns, but a country which goes completely crazy after seeing a nipple on TV for one second shouldn't really allow its people to bear guns.

Americans are quick to believe rash generalizations about citizens of other countries; but apparently, so is everybody else.

Please: The US is a big place with a large population. The opinion of the OP, expressed in the opening post, is his, and is not shared by me, nor (I'd venture to guess) by a significant portion of the US population.

He's entitled to his opinion. So am I (and so are you). But it's usually an inaccurate simplification to assume that any idea is shared by more than half of Americans. It's also probably not wise to jump to the conclusion that you understand America (or Americans) based upon what you read on the internet. Hell, I was born and raised here and don't understand most of us.
I was joking.

Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
Im just here to address the whole thumbs up/down thing.

Down equals keep them here.
Up equals send them to the Gods.

Or this is how it was explained in quite a few college history classes.
The true meaning of the thumb up/thumb down might have been lost in history. However, the thumb down = kill, thumb up = spare analogy doesn't come from nowhere, there are historians who think it is correct.
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Stephen Gassett
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Simon Mueller wrote:
mmolus wrote:
Simon Mueller wrote:
Neil Thomson wrote:
I've learned to not argue with an American about gun laws.
I wouldn't mind sensible citizen carrying guns, but a country which goes completely crazy after seeing a nipple on TV for one second shouldn't really allow its people to bear guns.

Americans are quick to believe rash generalizations about citizens of other countries; but apparently, so is everybody else.

Please: The US is a big place with a large population. The opinion of the OP, expressed in the opening post, is his, and is not shared by me, nor (I'd venture to guess) by a significant portion of the US population.

He's entitled to his opinion. So am I (and so are you). But it's usually an inaccurate simplification to assume that any idea is shared by more than half of Americans. It's also probably not wise to jump to the conclusion that you understand America (or Americans) based upon what you read on the internet. Hell, I was born and raised here and don't understand most of us.
I was joking.

Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
Im just here to address the whole thumbs up/down thing.

Down equals keep them here.
Up equals send them to the Gods.

Or this is how it was explained in quite a few college history classes.
The true meaning of the thumb up/thumb down might have been lost in history. However, the thumb down = kill, thumb up = spare analogy doesn't come from nowhere, there are historians who think it is correct.

Actually, thumbs down meant "spare his life" - it was meant to represent the victor burying the tip of his gladius in the dirt instead of in his opponent. The "kill him" sign was a thumb not up, but sideways across the throat. gulp
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Roger Magnusson
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In my opinion, society has sadly done an amazing job of convincing women that their self-worth is wrapped up entirely in their appearance and sexual prowess. Such magazine covers portray women as little more than sex objects. It is sexism at it's very core, cleverly disguised by shameless marketers.

How come you dont react to the obvious sexism towards MEN in the coverart? Its yet another depiction of male disposability. In my opinion this is a much more severe sexism than the objectification of women, whereas the latter makes women beeing selfconcious (and i wont even mention the provider-fication of men here), the first makes men DIE.

Beeing thaugt its NOBLE to go to war, to DIE to protect women and children, because for some reason one (male) life is not worth as much as another (female). Beeing thaught to sacrifice themselves not only by going to war, but everytime a woman might get hurt, be it staying on a sinking ship to make room for women in the lifeboats or beeing the one to go downstairs to investigate those strange noises or what not. In essence, teaching men their life is not as valuable as womens.

This could of course be called a chivalrous point of view from you, but in essence chivallry is not only harmful to men but sexist towards women, treating them as if they are less capable or adolescent.

I believe in your absolute right not to buy the game.

I DONT believe in your right to moralize over others who do, neither do i agree with a point of view that narrow-mindedly points outs female issues and make male issues invisible.

Lastly, I dont mind the coverart. Even though i am engaged and sensitive to female and male issues, I can see the diffrence between the problem and the symtoms of the problem, and i dont believe anything meaningful can be achieved by treating the symtom and making the problem invisible.

The problem ofcourse beeing narrowmindedness to begin with, since aslong we keep the male genderrole alive (its very useful for the government) the femal genderrole will be in part enforced by the dynamics of men and women.

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Stephen Gassett
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All this discussion of bottoms ultimately has only one incontrovertible and lasting outcome - the growth of Cyril's bottom line. cool
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The Rio Grande edition has indeed changed the cover art to make it less objectionable.

 
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I'm pretty sure that this and the naked ass in Citadels are the two stupidest complaints about any game ever in the history of the world.
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Harrison Chadd
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Uncanny timing. I read this whole thread, alternating between resigned frustration and surges of hope, while Hostel Part 2 played on cable right behind me. As I type this the hideous Elizabeth Bathory-inspired sequence is playing - the scene where a naked woman slices open another naked woman so she can bathe in her blood. The Hostel films came from within our culture, and were HUGE hits here, despite how morally repellent (and atrociously bad) they are. There's an obvious discussion about blood sport that could be had based just on these films alone, and the relish with which young Americans soaked them up. Gladiators vs. so-called "gorenography", anyone?

Considering that of late I've been making the most of my classical studies by providing history notes here on the Geek, I'll digress for a moment to refute the commonly held and erroneous belief that Roman society was licentious and depraved. It was NOT. Most mainstream Romans were horrified by, for example, Greek culture, with all of its nude athletes and open gay love. Only a small liberal ruling class elite went for this kind of thing. Romans were notoriously austere, serious and conservative in their outlook. The relationship between Greece and Rome has a startling resemblance to that now shared by Europe and the US (except that the US never invaded Europe and ransacked their culture - unless you count loud Texans cramming the Eiffel Tower buying postcards and keychains); the Greeks thought the Romans were obnoxious philistines, and the Romans thought the Greeks were lewd. Racial and cultural stereotyping is SO BCE.

Of course, in Rome, as everywhere, there was a big difference between private and public life. If you did it in private and KEPT it private, no-one really cared... but if you overstepped the lines of socially accepted decency, or rubbed the wrong people the wrong way, all of your dirty secrets would be aired to a "shocked, shocked" public who were so disgusted by your midnight proclivities that they eagerly absorbed every gory detail. Again, does any of this sound familiar? (I'm talking to YOU, Los Angeles!) The thing that bugs me about this is the hypocrisy of it all. The great Roman orator Cicero was happy to exploit Clodia Metelli's contacts and favors, but as soon as one of his allies ran afoul of her family he publicy destroyed her for basically being a total slut, all of which was so sensational that he achieved his aim - namely to divert attention from the actual guilt of his client. (Great story, by the way - look it up!)

But I digress. I merely wanted to jump in with my vote on the whole butt thing. Two different schools of feminism would argue on completely opposite sides of the exploitation/empowerment divide, so that's a waste of everybody's time. I do know that my psych lecturers would most likely unanimously agree that any interpretations of degradation are mostly in the eyes of the beholder - and that says something very unfortunate about the original poster. No offense, my man, and by all means you are free to continue to be offended by the naked female form, but you need to be careful with puritanism - it breeds repression, which breeds extremism and fetishism and a whole slew of other bad stuff.

But you must agree, as an American, that I have a Constitutional right to observe and enjoy naked female butts By censoring the box art Rio Grande have taken away the only power any of us really have - the power to choose. Of course, I can get the original from Europe, that hotbed of sexual licentiousness, or I can view the original right here on the Geek, but that's not really the point, is it? We're all here because of the "Principle" of it. I know it, and you know it too. You know there's no way to "protect" your wife and children from nudity, for a lot of the reasons that other posters on this thread have already made clear. So you're only taking the time and energy to make the ridiculously unsupportable claim that this game would sell less copies in the US if they removed the gauze overlay from two painted ladies' posteriors purely because of the Principle of the thing.

And so, on Principle, sir, I will emphatically disagree with you. Americans like myself are sick and goddamn tired of being treated like infants, and having a select few determine what's "right" and "correct" for the majority. That very notion flies in the face of the self-determination that this country was built on.

I, for one, would also like to shoot down and refute any further stereotyping by liberal Europeans who like to look down their noses at Americans. I could very easily judge your cultures by the Neo-Nazis I've met in Austria, the radical Catholics I've debated with in Rome, or the bigoted Socialists I've enjoyed hating in France. But I don't because I have the wisdom and experience to know that they, just like the puritans and gun-lovers and born-agains and whatever elses in this country are just a vocal and extreme minority. My initial dismay at the fact that this thread existed at all was quickly alleviated by the many many postings from rational, adult gamers, all of whom are basically riffing on the theme of live and let live. I'd like to thank you all for existing, and taking the time to make your voices heard.

To cap it off, I'd like to add that my own wife has some VERY strong opinions on this matter, but I'm not going to deign to speak for her. She's Persian, born and raised in Tehran, so she knows a whole lot about puritan prudishness and female disempowerment. I'm going to convince her to set up her own account, so she can weigh in on these things in the future. Plus, she games!

All the best to all of you.
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hjchadd wrote:
But you must agree, as an American, that I have a Constitutional right to observe and enjoy naked female butts By censoring the box art Rio Grande have taken away the only power any of us really have - the power to choose. Of course, I can get the original from Europe, that hotbed of sexual licentiousness, or I can view the original right here on the Geek, but that's not really the point, is it?

Technically, then Rio Grande *have* given you the opportunity to choose.
 
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At the risk of being the butt of someone's childish jokes, I have to say I think the whole issue here is a little assinine. People are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for reasons to be offended.

The game company shouldn't have to be rear-ended by a bunch of prudish bums for the art that's on whatever trunk the game comes in, and it would be a tragedy if sales fell behind because of it. If the game is well-made, then the creators deserve all the booty they get off of it and more.

Personally, I don't give a big patootie about the whole issue, but figured I'd drop my two cents into the coin slot here, so hopefully nobody gets red cheeks while reading this.

whistle
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Tim Harrison
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Again... (what is this, the 5th time I've said it?), I did not question Ystari or RGG's right to do what they did. They can do whatever they want. All I did was state that it was a poor marketing decision.

Except for Bombay, which just came out a few months ago, Sylla has sold fewer copies (based on the number of users that own it according to the Geek) than any other Ystari game. See for yourself...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgamepublisher/2861

Thus, I stand firmly by my statement.
 
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Tim Maloney
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GamesOnTheBrain wrote:


... this cover will not fly in the US/family market.


Except Sylla, as well as roughly 99% of the other games listed on the Geek, will never be sold in Walmart/Target/Toys-R-Us/etc (and wouldn't even if there was a picture of kittens or the baby Jesus on the cover) so they will never enter the "family market" to fly or not fly.
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Harrison Chadd
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Yes, Tim, you did indeed state that it was a poor marketing decision. And I countered that this kind of belief is directly responsible for the dumbing-down of the culture. But you can't keep hiding behind a pretense at rationality - you led your thread with a personal comment stating that you wouldn't be buying the game BECAUSE of the cover art, did you not? And it's the proliferation of opinions like yours loudly crowing from the mainstream that have led to concerns over "American prudishness", and then led to summary decisions being made before the fact, just in case someone is going to be offended.

And you can't really be trying to use the number of copies owned by BGGers as "proof" of your righteousness, can you? Using your logic, I could also claim that Power Grid has sold so many copies purely because there's NO female nudity on the box cover.

So, like you, I'll stand firmly beside my own statements.

I will, however, offer my respect for the strength of your opinions.
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hjchadd wrote:
...you led your thread with a personal comment stating that you wouldn't be buying the game BECAUSE of the cover art, did you not?
Absolutely. I stated that for no other reason than Ystari's poor marketing decision, I would not buy the game. I'm sure others, whether they are here on BBG or not, have done the same.

hjchadd wrote:
And you can't really be trying to use the number of copies owned by BGGers as "proof" of your righteousness, can you?
Of course not, because this isn't about righteousness. It's about the objectification of women, period. It is not a simple matter of nudity; it is the context of that nudity -- a woman (likely a slave) dancing provocatively in front of a man (a king, perhaps) to satisfy his lustful desires.

Deep down, I think most men would recognize this. Afterall, how many men would be happy or proud if that girl was his daughter? If you want to call me a prude for that, so be it.

One more thing... Clearly Ystari and RGG agreed with me, at least to some extent. Why else would they have covered the girl's butt? They did so precisely because they recognized that the original cover would not be a good marketing move in the U.S. In my opinion, they simply didn't go far enough.

Quote:
So, like you, I'll stand firmly beside my own statements.

I will, however, offer my respect for the strength of your opinions.
I appreciate that. While I disagree with you, I respect the strength of yours as well.

 
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Jamey Philipp
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Sooooooo, how do I ensure I get one of the original copies with "the butt"?
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