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See Rules thread for rules including dates and deadlines.

Thanks to JeffyJeff, the OLWLG (see http://activityclub.org/bgg/mathtrade.cgi) will be available for this event. Use is super highly recommended but technically not required.


Where:
Trade Geeklist: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/36392 (This is where you offer your items).

Request Geeklist: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/30625 (This is where you ask other people to offer things that you want).

Discussion, Debate, General Chit-Chat, & Whining Thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/353055
(If you are an old hand at MT's and understand but do not like a process/rule in this particular MT, please post your opinion/recommendation/suggesiton here. This is also the place for general chit chat and light banter). You should click the Subscribe link for this thread.

Complete Rules, Official Announcements, Data Lists, and Newbie Questions Discussion Thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/341176
(Please read this thread to review complete rules, official announcements, and data lists.
Also, if you are a newbie or do not understand the rules as written or the definition of a process in this particular MT, please request a clarification here. This should be a low traffic thread so your question should not get lost in the shuffle). You should click the Subscribe link for this thread.

Other Important Notes That Did Not Fit Above:
The moderator reserves the right to remove items from the list for any reason.

By posting an item in this MT, you agree to abide both by the general math trade guidelines and by those specific to this particular math trade.

If you have any general questions please do NOT click the Comment link in the Trade GeekList header, but rather ask in one of the Discussion threads. However, for questions on individual items, please feel free to add comments to individual geeklist items (but again do not add general comments to the geeklist itself).

At the end of the day, all these MT's are based on trust. We trust each other in the BGG community to accurately describe our offered items. Obviously, everybody would enjoy getting a trade up or getting a good deal, but we trust each other to act with integrity througout the entire process. We trust each other to ship our items. We trust each other to do the right thing in situations where the rules are ambiguous or an issue arises. Please do not violate this trust.
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aksosa wrote:
I hope I can make it through all of the rules before the Math Trade ends
You seem like a sharp guy. So, I have faith in your ability to read.
Seriously though, would you rather wade through 378 posts trying to pick out questions asked and answers provided? Seems like all the rules eventually have to be covered in every MT. Whether they are stated up-front or scattered throughout a discussion thread.
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artfuldodge2 wrote:
Damn.

Can I have my attorney and acountant present during the trade?
You have the express written consent of the moderator (but not of MLB) to have your lawyer review all aspects of the MT.
You are responsible for all attorney fees.
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J.L.Robert wrote:
Seems like a very self-serving MT.
Because I don't like 18XX games, nor have many GMT titles, I have to race to get any and all of my entries in during the first 12 hours of the MT opening? While I'm at work? Researching which games "qualify" and which don't?
While I like the intent, I just think it'll create a mad dash at the start to submit Tanga/Pozy/thrift stuff and will be too much of a hassle in the end.
No thanks. Even more work than normal for too little a reward.
You are welcome and encouraged to pass on this MT if you do not like the specifics. Seriously, this is not intended to be a snarky response at all. I would always advise everyone to only participate in MTs that they like. Rest assured that there will be another MT coming along shortly after this one.

You are also even more welcome and encouraged to do the work and moderate your own MT and use whatever unique rules you prefer that would make it more to your liking. This is also not intended to be a snarky response. More MTs and more MT moderators are a good thing.
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Updated the Who section of the rules to make it clear that participants in this MT MUST use a US shipping address.
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lj1983 wrote:
woowee...seems like 7.5 is kinda high, in my opinion. I've got three things I'm gonna put up, and two are above the 'tier 1' threshold, but alot of stuff I'm interested in floats around the 6.9/7.0 line. ah well, just hope they get in early.
Yep. There are only about 2,500 items that have a rating of 7.5 or higher and obviously many of those will not meet the demand criteria once the 750 barrier is broken.

This will not be a CabinFever-style record-breaking-number-of-items MT. The goal is More quality and Less quantity.
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RoamDog wrote:
You are welcome and encouraged to pass on this MT if you do not like the specifics.
I'll take you up on your suggestion and encouragement to pass. Enjoy, folks!
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I fear that we will reach 750 quickly, and a large percentage will be from those who didn't read, or didn't comprehend all the rules.

I am not a total dummy, but I had a hard time comprehending the pages of details. Is there a DUMMIES version of these rules?

I did get the idea that 18xx is good.

The problem is an age-old one. People do not read.

This has been proven time and time again in previous MTs with very few rules. Attention spans wane, people become overconfident, they read what they want to read or skip significant things...

PEOPLE DON'T READ.

How can we be assured that folks will actually read and understand these rules prior to posting, so that those of us who do pore over these rules multiple times until we grasp their breadth (it will take me at least five reads) actually have a chance to get in under the 750 cap?

I mean, there is often a flood of entries in the first few hours... and folks will just jump in the fray without reading, trying to get their entry spots reserved.

Since there hasn't been a MT in a little while, people will jump on this as soon as the train leaves the station.

Yeah, I am being dramatic.

But, again, PEOPLE DON'T READ.
 
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caltino wrote:
So the top 45 games are in tier 1 plus the 18xx games (because the organizer wants them I suppose), and nothing else?

MinCrap is an understatement.
Actually the game currently ranked #1089 and many others between 45 and 1089 would qualify. Plus any expansions that meet the 7.5 and +25 net demand plus 18xx plus the complete catalog of GMT games.

And, of course, there are no rating or demand restrictions until the 750 offer barrier is breached.
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It may be worthwhile for people to put their method(s) of shipping (USPS Priority, Fedex Ground, what have you) In their items where they would normally put shipping restrictions.

I know some people are going to want to use Parcel Post to ship stuff to save money because they're paying for it and I'd want to avoid items that are being shipped that way because of previous bad experience. I also know some people live in areas of the country where one service or another isn't reliable.

Normally if people are only paying partial I can request an upgrade to a method of choice at my cost, but that won't be possible here. Just a thought.
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diehard4life wrote:
I fear that we will reach 750 quickly, and a large percentage will be from those who didn't read, or didn't comprehend all the rules.

I am not a total dummy, but I had a hard time comprehending the pages of details. Is there a DUMMIES version of these rules?

I did get the idea that 18xx is good.

The problem is an age-old one. People do not read.

This has been proven time and time again in previous MTs with very few rules. Attention spans wane, people become overconfident, they read what they want to read or skip significant things...

PEOPLE DON'T READ.

How can we be assured that folks will actually read and understand these rules prior to posting, so that those of us who do pore over these rules multiple times until we grasp their breadth (it will take me at least five reads) actually have a chance to get in under the 750 cap?

I mean, there is often a flood of entries in the first few hours... and folks will just jump in the fray without reading, trying to get their entry spots reserved.

Since there hasn't been a MT in a little while, people will jump on this as soon as the train leaves the station.

Yeah, I am being dramatic.

But, again, PEOPLE DON'T READ.
Great idea. I will add an Executive Summary. I cannot argue with your thesis that most people do not read the rules. I have tried to highlight some points with colors and font size, but the non-readers will just skip that also. So, an Executive Summary is a great idea.

Fortunately, the last time we did this there actually were very few offers posted that did not comply with the rules. And I think that there was only one user that did not quickly correct errors and that I had to use a moderator override to blank their Want Lists.

Appreciate your comments and think that you had just the right amount of drama.
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NinjaPirateAssassin wrote:
It may be worthwhile for people to put their method(s) of shipping (USPS Priority, Fedex Ground, what have you) In their items where they would normally put shipping restrictions.

I know some people are going to want to use Parcel Post to ship stuff to save money because they're paying for it and I'd want to avoid items that are being shipped that way because of previous bad experience. I also know some people live in areas of the country where one service or another isn't reliable.

Normally if people are only paying partial I can request an upgrade to a method of choice at my cost, but that won't be possible here. Just a thought.
Great idea. I have clarified the rules to state that the default shipping method will be least-cost. And that shippers that are planning to use something other than the default are welcome to add a comment to their offers to state such.
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kurmuzz wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
You are welcome and encouraged to pass on this MT if you do not like the specifics.
I'll take you up on your suggestion and encouragement to pass. Enjoy, folks!
Thank you. I appreciate you "taking one for the team" to create more space for others to post offers prior to the 750-offer barrier being breached.

You are also encouraged to do the work and moderate your own MT and use whatever unique rules you prefer that would make it more to your liking. This is also not intended to be a snarky response. More MTs and more MT moderators are a good thing.
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RoamDog wrote:
You are also encouraged to do the work and moderate your own MT and use whatever unique rules you prefer that would make it more to your liking. This is also not intended to be a snarky response. More MTs and more MT moderators are a good thing.
I have thought about it (somewhat fleetingly) often enough, but Jack, Shawn, and Jeff have done a spectacular job of the trades recently... with no experience and a rather high bar, organizing one makes me think twice...
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kurmuzz wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
You are also encouraged to do the work and moderate your own MT and use whatever unique rules you prefer that would make it more to your liking. This is also not intended to be a snarky response. More MTs and more MT moderators are a good thing.
I have thought about it (somewhat fleetingly) often enough, but Jack, Shawn, and Jeff have done a spectacular job of the trades recently... with no experience and a rather high bar, organizing one makes me think twice...
It is NOT unreasonably hard. And there are plenty of experienced moderators that will usually answer questions and generally try to help.

However, it does consume quite a bit of personal bandwidth. A tiny bit less if you do a total-OLWLG MT and disallow manual submission.

But most importantly, you need to have very very very thick skin. As it is impossible to please all the people all the time and it is impossible to please some of the people any of the time and these are the people that post most often in the discussion threads.
Seriously, some folks treat each of these MTs like there will never ever be another one (even though they seem to pop up every couple weeks) and become indignant when the rules do not meet with their approval. Rather than just moving on and waiting for the next MT in a week or two.

You should give moderation a try. You could even use some rules that let you start small. Cokasaki did a 10-hour MT a while back that had limited offers posted.
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I look forward to this Math Trade.
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Added a clarification to the MT rules requiring folks that add sweeteners to their main items to use an explicit tag or label (i.e. Sweetener(s):) to identify the sweetener items.

Also further restricted who can participate in this MT (in the WHO section) by requiring participants to be able to read at the 6th-grade reading level (or above) and by requiring participants to agree to actually read the full text of the offers being made prior to putting any offer on their Want List.
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I was excited about this MT because it looked like it was going to be a HUGE one, but after reading over the rules, I have little hope that I will be in the first 750, and the rest of the rules preclude my participation.

I'm sure it took a lot of work to create the rule set, so I appreciate the effort.
 
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utahBGG wrote:
I was excited about this MT because it looked like it was going to be a HUGE one, but after reading over the rules, I have little hope that I will be in the first 750, and the rest of the rules preclude my participation.

I'm sure it took a lot of work to create the rule set, so I appreciate the effort.
Understood. I am curious why you think, "I have little hope that I will be in the first 750"? Would you mind sharing why you think that? If it is personal, do not feel obligated to reply. I am just curious.

I am guessing that we will not get to 750 as soon as Jeffy's MT did as
1. Some regulars will be boycotting on principal alone.
2. Some Canadian and other non-US regular Mtraders will not be eligible.
3. Some people would rather wade through hundreds of post to ferret out all the rules and rulings rather than having them all (or as close to all as possible) consolidated in one place at the start and will give up before they even start
4. The moderator just rubs some people the wrong way and they would rather cut off their nose to spite their face by not participating in the hopes that it will teach the moderator a lesson
5. The BGG.con and the Election MTs will have just finished and some people will be a tiny bit burned out.
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Sigh. In an effort to avoid some of the problems that impacted Jeffy's Election Day MT, I have updated the rules with a couple of clarifications:

Sweeteners (or multiple games in one entry): Are allowed and strongly encouraged (helps to mitigate shipping costs). If you are including any other items along with the main offered item, as sweeteners, make sure to include all the details in the description of the main offered item, but be sure to insert a Sweetener(s): tag or label in your description prior to the items being offered as sweeteners. Remember that the inclusion of a sweetener is not a separate offer. Instead, this would be added, along with the original item, to create a "lot" that you may offer as a potential trade. Even if you do not use the OLWLG, many other MT participants will --so be sure to list your sweetener items (after the Sweetener(s): tag) using either the [GAMEID=nnnnn] formatting (prefered -- so game 12750 looks like 1860: Railways on the Isle of Wight) or a link to the game's page (this will look like http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/12750). If you don't use this format your sweeteners won't show up in the OLWLG properly. OLWLG users--Read the full text of the offer--do NOT just scan the offer looking for items in various highlighted colors. Some users (especially those that do not re-type their offers from scratch with each and every MT but rather use the BGG user collection data) may include pointers to related games or other additional helpful information in their comments. These pointers may appear to be sweeteners in the OLWLG (due to color coding) but obviously are not. There should not be any confusion to anybody that actually reads the full text of the offer, but folks that get in a hurry and just scan for colors may become confused and disoriented.


Change Management Process:
1. Do not delete offered items from the Trade Geeklist once you have posted them. Deleting posted offers causes the integrity of the numbering system to collapse.
It's totally cool if you don't want to trade an item once it's added--maybe you get an irresistible private offer, maybe your game is not in the condition you remembered, maybe your dog ate it. The reason does not matter. If you no longer wish to trade an entry as it was originally posted, simply edit the original text (but do NOT delete the entry from the GL), and change its description to "Item No Longer Available, I'll submit a blank want list" or text to that effect. You don't have to reveal the details, but you are welcome to insert an amusing story explaining why the item is no longer available if you wish. Even if you do not provide a story, it is a good idea to change the item id to something like (gameid=0) Null or (gameid=11901) Tic-Tac-Toe. Remember to submit a Blank Want List for this entry.
2. Also, do not substitute or split or change offered items and do not delete or substitute or split or change offered sweeteners. While this type of change does not destroy the numbering system, it does destroy the overall integrity of the MT. Back in the "old days" the total number of items offered was small enough that MT participants could easily review the list several times prior to final submission of Want Lists so changes (to main items or sweeteners) back then were not much of a problem. However, with the evolution of the MT tools, current MTs are often gigantic and with the deficiencies of the current GeekList format for trading, many (most?) participants only work through the offers on the Trade GeekList once (in real time as they are being added) and never see any changes that might be made. This obviously causes problems if changes of any kind are made. So, please do not make any changes that would delete, substitute, or split main items or any sweeteners from the Trade Geeklist once you have posted them. If you no longer wish to trade an entry as it was originally posted, simply edit the original text (but do NOT delete the entry from the GL), and change its description to "Item No Longer Available, I'll submit a blank want list" or text to that effect. You don't have to reveal the details, but you are welcome to insert an amusing story explaining why the item is no longer available if you wish. Even if you do not provide a story, it is a good idea to change the item id to something like (gameid=0) Null or (gameid=11901) Tic-Tac-Toe.[/i][/size] Remember to submit a Blank Want List for this entry. If you still want to trade a portion of the original offer or some variation of the original offer, simply re-post a new offer with the new details.
3. In the current MT environment, the only changes that are appropriate are providing clarifications (that do not materially change your original offer), switching the picture to one that better matches the text of your offer and adding sweeteners. All other changes should be handled with the process described above where you blank the original offer, submit a blank Want List for that orignal offer and possibly add a new offer.

Is this a bit kludgy and cumbersome? Yes, but it is the only way to minimize misunderstandings, miscommunications, and drama.


Overall Offer Posting Guidelines: When you post an offer for an item (with or without sweeteners) don't make any changes (see Change Management Process). When you post an offer for an item (including any sweeteners) provide as much detail as possible. However, once you have gone to the trouble and exhaustively described your offer, assume that everybody in the MT (except you) is totally illiterate and incapable of reading a word you just wrote and will rely completely on the pretty picture(s) you associated with your offer. So, choose the picture that best matches your offer.
And then when you start making your Want List reverse your assumptions and assume that everybody in the MT (except you) chose the wrong picture and that the text is the only part of the offer that you can rely on. If there is ever any discrepancy between the picture and the text, the text will be considered to be correct. So triple check to make sure that your text is accurate when you post an offer.
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The Request Geeklist (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/30625) will be closed to new entries prior to the final deadline to submit offers (which is Offer Submission Period is Closed:........................ (Thursday) 13-Nov at 18:00 CT).
So, please get your requests in as early as possible. Even though you will be able to submit offers up until the deadline, you will not be able to make additional requests at some point before the final deadline.
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OK. Let the games begin. Early birds are now welcome. However, remember that if you post any offers prior to the official start of this MT, then you give up the right to whine about the duration of this MT.

I am sure that there will be plenty of people that whine about how unfair it is that I opened the trade for early birds so I do not want to hear any complaining from the early birds themselves.
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Clarified rules regarding 5-1 (games vs. non-games). Sweeteners do not count toward the 5-1 rule. You have to post 5 separate offers of games prior to offering a non-game item.
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RoamDog wrote:
Early birds are now welcome. However, remember that if you post any offers prior to the official start of this MT, then you give up the right to whine about the duration of this MT.

I am sure that there will be plenty of people that whine about how unfair it is that I opened the trade for early birds so I do not want to hear any complaining from the early birds themselves.
Oh dear. Does that mean that I can't whine about the amount of time that I have to wait between the time that I finished posting my items and the official start of the event?

Drat! How am I going to spend the intervening time now?
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kurmuzz wrote:
I have thought about it (somewhat fleetingly) often enough, but Jack, Shawn, and Jeff have done a spectacular job of the trades recently... with no experience and a rather high bar, organizing one makes me think twice...
Thanks for the kind words. As has been mentioned, if you're prepared to invest the time, it's not that bad. Here's some advice to you or anyone else who is thinking of running an event from someone who has run 6-7 of these now:

1) Ask JeffyJeff if he'll support your event with the OLWLG (be flexible in your dates/times when you ask) and if he agrees then make the event require it. It's so much easier. This event doesn't require it, and credit to our moderator for taking on all of that extra work.

2) If JeffyJeff agrees and you choose to make use of the OLWLG optional, as is happening in this event, I recommend NOT allowing people who have submitted by OLWLG to submit changes by GeekMail or vice versa. I ran into a problem where I had to rerun the results because I let someone do that.

3) Make sure your rules are clear and stick to them - don't change them mid-stream - even if someone complains. If you can point to the rules you provided then there's not much cause for complaint. Your best bet is to look at the rules for other events that you've enjoyed and copy the instructions you like best from those.

4) Make sure you're going to be free at the deadlines that you've posted, and check in frequently in between to answer questions.

5) As has been pointed out, be prepared for the possibility that someone will be unhappy. Recent events have seen someone pull out and someone else cause a problem by changing an entry and not telling anyone (beyond changing it in the GeekList). You never know when something strange is going to happen, and in both cases I think that the moderators (not me, obviously) handled those well and extremely fairly. If something like that crops up, just handle it calmly, fairly and stick to your stated rules if possible.

So to sum up - don't be intimidated. If you have the time to invest, give it a try. It's how we all started.
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