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Subject: MinCrapMaxAccountability Pre-Thanksgiving 2008 MT -- Discussion, Debate, General Chit-Chat, & Whining Thread rss

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greatredwarrior wrote:
I've got a question: in the OLWLG program, if I click a whole bunch of stuff does the program think I'm willing to trade ANY of those items for the wanted item, or ALL of those items for the listed item?
JeffyJeff may provide more details, but...
If you are in step 3 then you are saying that you would trade ANY of your games that you check for the item being offered.
If you are in step 4 then for each row (item that somebody else has offered) you are saying that you would trade ANY of your games that you check for the item offered on that row.
So, make 110% sure that you are OK with trading any of the items you check for the offered item.
Please ask again if this did not answer your question.
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I'm curious to know why you say in the requirements that the shipper has to pay all shipping costs, yet in your posts you have a line saying "Shipping: Default."

That seems to indicate that there is a non-default shipping method...

Plus, limiting games after the first 750 will be problematic when most people don't check to see where the current total is at, and just add their stuff.
 
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Need your help. There are a ton of offers that either do not have condition info or even more importantly do not have version/edition info. I have spent most of the evening going through the list and contacting folks to ask them to add missing data. For many of the offers it honestly does not matter (they will not end up on anybody's Want List). Unfortunately, I am not 100% sure which offers it matters for and which offers is does not (one man's trash, etc.). And at this rate I will not get through the list asking for people to actually comply with the rules.
So, please help me. There is even a reward (see http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2652813#2652813).
As an absolute minimum, for any item that you personally are considering putting on one or more of your Want Lists that is missing informatin, please contact the offerer and ask them to update their text with the missing information.
Feel free to go one step further and ask for updates on any item that you see that is missing info (not just the ones that you will put on your Want Lists).
It is helpful to add a comment to the Trade Geeklist to ask for the missing data, but many people will not see those, so please send a Geekmail to the offerers instead (or in addition).
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Stexe wrote:
I'm curious to know why you say in the requirements that the shipper has to pay all shipping costs, yet in your posts you have a line saying "Shipping: Default."

That seems to indicate that there is a non-default shipping method...

Plus, limiting games after the first 750 will be problematic when most people don't check to see where the current total is at, and just add their stuff.
Because the Default is
Quote:
default shipping method will be the least-cost method (typically USPS Parcel Post) without insurance. The sender may not charge the receiver for insurance unless the receiver requests insurance. The sender is free to choose a more expensive and faster shipping method (but may not require the receiver to pay extra) and if using an upgraded shipping method may want to include a comment in the listing explaining what shipping method will be used.
So, a non-default shipping method would be some kind of free upgraded class of service or maybe free insurance paid for by the shipper.


Obviously, people should check to see where the current total is before adding their stuff. And I am counting on people to not be total tools and on the community to police each other with respect to the rules.
Last year when we did this it actually worked fairly well. There were a very few items that were posted that were not eligible.
 
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RangerRob wrote:
...I'll have to pass on this one, good luck.
Thanks.
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Michael Leuchtenburg
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WHINE
Damn those are some complicated rules. It's a good thing they were up well before the trade, 'cause it took days for them to sink in.

I think that they'd be simplified by omitting the "tier" concept. Also, what the heck is with calling them 01, 02, 03? Did you just want to have a few more characters in there? The excess of colors also makes it much more difficult to read. Believe it or not, pale purple on pale blue (the item type numbers on the default BGG background for comments) is not easy to read.

Also, while I appreciate the desire to head off questions, I don't think than an excess of verbosity is the way to do it. Just be clear, and say it once. Sure, there will be questions - but which is worse, a few questions, or scaring off a bunch of potential traders? I'd say the latter, by far.

Also, I think you've overspecified. There's no way that everyone is going to follow every rule, and thus far many remain unenforced. If you're not going to enforce a rule, don't make it.
 
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Michael Leuchtenburg
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Oh, and I found one thing that your rules didn't cover. Trying to cover all possible questions really does seem like a hopeless endeavor.

Are shipping policies that restrict shipments to the lower 48 only allowed? (JeffyJeff take note).
 
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dyfrgi wrote:
Are shipping policies that restrict shipments to the lower 48 only allowed? (JeffyJeff take note).
Yea, I wondered too, wasn't sure, and if I have to ship to all 50 USA I will... though I think it's redundant as I've yet to ever see any one in a math trade from Alaska or Hawaii.. the former they are too busy in snow machine races (or hunting from helicoptors ), the the latter, the weather must just be too nice all the time do be spending any time indoors playing a board game

I did keep out of this MT my Roads&Boats because it's both big and heavy, and I'm also comptemplating a pending direct trade offer (one I'd probably likely take if it was a local no-ship trade, but it's the shipping costs that may ruin it for me).

*** if I have to based on the rules... however the rules do NOT state one must... only:

1. You MUST use a US shipping address
2. You (sender) MUST pay the full shipping costs

I'm doing both. But it's a moot point, I've not heard or seen that anyone outside the lower 48 is in this or any MT (thought I hear Steve, aka Ward, may be moving to Alaska?)
 
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JeffyJeff wrote:

I did keep out of this MT my Roads&Boats because it's both big and heavy, and I'm also comptemplating a pending direct trade offer (one I'd probably likely take if it was a local no-ship trade, but it's the shipping costs that may ruin it for me).
If it is my offer you are talking about, contact me and lets see if we can't work something out If not, then disregard this
 
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dyfrgi wrote:
Damn those are some complicated rules. It's a good thing they were up well before the trade, 'cause it took days for them to sink in.
Actually I think that the rules are not that complicated, but rather they are clearly too verbose. I would have loved to have simplified them to, "Don't be a tool," but that would lead to a disaster.


dyfrgi wrote:

I think that they'd be simplified by omitting the "tier" concept. Also, what the heck is with calling them 01, 02, 03? Did you just want to have a few more characters in there?
Would definitely like to hear your thought on how to convey the concept of "crap items are allowed at first, but at some point only cream items are allowed. And the concept of games (more desired) vs. non-games (less desired but not at all prohibited--just limited)" without using Tiers. Am totally open to how to convey that differently in my next MT.


dyfrgi wrote:
The excess of colors also makes it much more difficult to read.
Agreed. jdludlow is trying to come up with better formating for me.


dyfrgi wrote:
Believe it or not, pale purple on pale blue (the item type numbers on the default BGG background for comments) is not easy to read.
That is surprising to me. I have no problem with that combo. So, thank you for letting me know that it is problematic to some.


dyfrgi wrote:
Also, while I appreciate the desire to head off questions, I don't think than an excess of verbosity is the way to do it. Just be clear, and say it once. Sure, there will be questions - but which is worse, a few questions, or scaring off a bunch of potential traders? I'd say the latter, by far.
Agreed. Next time, a less verbose initial rule set.


dyfrgi wrote:
Also, I think you've overspecified. There's no way that everyone is going to follow every rule, and thus far many remain unenforced. If you're not going to enforce a rule, don't make it.
Yep.
RoamDog wrote:
But I am coming to think that it is just not possible to legislate good behavior. And that we all will just have to accept that mistakes will be made in these MTs no matter how clear the rules are.
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dyfrgi wrote:
Oh, and I found one thing that your rules didn't cover. Trying to cover all possible questions really does seem like a hopeless endeavor.
Agreed.


dyfrgi wrote:
Are shipping policies that restrict shipments to the lower 48 only allowed? (JeffyJeff take note).
No. They are still valid US addresses.
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Could you explain how to calculate the net demand? For example, I just posted Pandemic, which I know has a high demand, but I don't understand how to calculate it. Thanks!

Would
Users Wanting: 596 - Users Trading: 20= 576 be correct?
 
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shadow9d9 wrote:
Could you explain how to calculate the net demand? For example, I just posted Pandemic, which I know has a high demand, but I don't understand how to calculate it. Thanks!

Would
Users Wanting: 596 - Users Trading: 20= 576 be correct?
Yep. Exactly.
 
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RoamDog wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
Could you explain how to calculate the net demand? For example, I just posted Pandemic, which I know has a high demand, but I don't understand how to calculate it. Thanks!

Would
Users Wanting: 596 - Users Trading: 20= 576 be correct?
Yep. Exactly.
Does the sweetener to a game like Pandemic need to be of high demand too?

Also, I think 7.5+ is a little high.. games like Antike don't even apply.
 
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shadow9d9 wrote:

Does the sweetener to a game like Pandemic need to be of high demand too?

Also, I think 7.5+ is a little high.. games like Antike don't even apply.
No. Sweeteners can be any tier 02 game. Or any Tier 03 item (as long as you meet the 5-1 ratio).

Your opinion on the 7.5 is noted.
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RoamDog wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:


Also, I think 7.5+ is a little high.. games like Antike don't even apply.
Your opinion on the 7.5 is noted.
I would have to agree that 7.5 seems to be an odd cut-off.
I got an email inviting me to participate today, but it was after item #751... So, my options are limited.
I have many items to trade which are both high quality and highly desirable based on the number of trade requests they generate for me. Unfortunately, none are rated above 7.5. So, I'll have to wait for the next MT.
Examples include San Marco (new & sealed), Battle Cry (new and sealed), Epic Duels (new & sealed), RoboRally (new & sealed), ...

This is more of a 'whine' than anything. Other than that, I like all other aspects of this math trade. Hopefully I'll catch the next one earlier.
 
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Ok here comes some serious whinning. Cover your ears

I get an invitation to participate last night at 7:00 pm I come here today and the list is closed.

Opps I'm sorry it's not closed I can offer my games over 7.5 to keep up the quality but before the 750 you can offer snakes and ladders.

What the hell. Why not just start the list and say only games over 7 from the word go. Why would we allow one group to post games below 5 and the rest of us have to be above 7.5 if you wanted quality only then set some reasonable limit even 6.5 or 6.75.

There are a ton of things I'd like to trade for but I'm sorry I don't have any games over 7.5 I'm willing to trade I'd just have to repurchase them.

Don't send me any emails saying oh by the way I have some crap games you might want but I don't want to look at your crap games just the good stuff.

Outrageous.
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plasticaddict wrote:
I have many items to trade which are both high quality and highly desirable based on the number of trade requests they generate for me. Unfortunately, none are rated above 7.5. So, I'll have to wait for the next MT.
Examples include San Marco (new & sealed), ...
Yea, it's ranked #145... this is the old problem we had in the old days with these restricted MT's... rating vs. rank... and even rating is confusing as there are two ratings... one is the raw average of all the ratings... the other is the "BGG Rating" which is some form of Baysian average.
 
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Ok, so - I love Math Trades and I am up for this one but I tried reading through the rules and my eyes rolled back into my head.

Can I go ahead and put in a copy of 1960 the making of a president or not?
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Craig Viau wrote:
Don't send me any emails saying oh by the way I have some crap games you might want but I don't want to look at your crap games just the good stuff.
Yea, someone else pointed to me offline that the way it was setup it front loaded the lower tiered items... which for those with the upper tiered items, doesn't look tempting to add their stuff.

I'm not a big fan of these type of restricted MT's now that there is no longer a limit on the number of items in the MT (TradeGenie was hardcoded at 499 items), but if we had to have it, it may have actually made more sense to have had the tougher restrictions for the earlier items so it was front loaded that way, and then opened it up for everything else.
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RoamDog wrote:
Would definitely like to hear your thought on how to convey the concept of "crap items are allowed at first, but at some point only cream items are allowed. And the concept of games (more desired) vs. non-games (less desired but not at all prohibited--just limited)" without using Tiers. Am totally open to how to convey that differently in my next MT.
A couple of things could make this easier.

1. Forget the "first 750 don't have to follow all of the rules, just some of the rules" part. Make the theme consistent across the entire trade.

2. Have exactly 1 tier. A game either qualifies or it doesn't. My favorite one that I've seen used is to allow games which have more "wanted" than "for trade". It's a simple metric, and it avoids the confusion between the two ranking numbers.

Another example of a 1-tier MT would be "Every main item must be an 18xx game, with whatever sweeteners you want." It'll result in a low number of trades, but that's not really a big deal either on a niche MT with such a narrow focus.


Quote:
dyfrgi wrote:
The excess of colors also makes it much more difficult to read.
Agreed. jdludlow is trying to come up with better formating for me.
Actually, that was more of a lament that I don't have time to reformat the rules. I'd like to run a MT as well, but that's not going to happen any time soon. I was bitching about this trade, and offering little in return. Hopefully, some of my ideas are still helpful though.

 
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7.0 and above need to be included.. plenty of amazing games in that range... otherwise expect only a small trickle to be added from here.

Think about it.. only the top 45 games of ranked games has 7.50 or higher.

7.0 is the first 196.

I agree with Jeff.. top 1000 or even top 500 should be included.. otherwise this will end up being EXTREMELY limited.
 
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shadow9d9 wrote:
7.0 and above need to be included.. plenty of amazing games in that range.
or just anything ranked better than 1,000.... (though that does have the problem that expansions are no longer ranked)
 
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plasticaddict wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:


Also, I think 7.5+ is a little high.. games like Antike don't even apply.
Your opinion on the 7.5 is noted.
I would have to agree that 7.5 seems to be an odd cut-off.
I got an email inviting me to participate today, but it was after item #751... So, my options are limited.
I have many items to trade which are both high quality and highly desirable based on the number of trade requests they generate for me. Unfortunately, none are rated above 7.5. So, I'll have to wait for the next MT.
Examples include San Marco (new & sealed), Battle Cry (new and sealed), Epic Duels (new & sealed), RoboRally (new & sealed), ...

This is more of a 'whine' than anything. Other than that, I like all other aspects of this math trade. Hopefully I'll catch the next one earlier.
Actually the 7.5 number cuts off the top 500 at 45, so only unranked games below the top 45 with high ratings are eligible.
This excludes:
Galaxy Trucker
Dune
Roads & Boats
Antiquity
and yes the list of high end games not eligible goes on almost endlessly.
 
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jdludlow wrote:
2. Have exactly 1 tier. A game either qualifies or it doesn't. My favorite one that I've seen used is to allow games which have more "wanted" than "for trade". It's a simple metric, and it avoids the confusion between the two ranking numbers.
even easier... I could setup the OLWLG so that those that only want to see games that meet that metric will only see those items.

After all, the only problem with what some label "crap" is that they have to "weed" through them. This way they wouldn't, but it wouldn't restrict stuff that may very well be wanted by others who aren't so restrictive.
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