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Subject: MinCrapMaxAccountability Pre-Thanksgiving 2008 MT -- Discussion, Debate, General Chit-Chat, & Whining Thread rss

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I'm having a hard time finding this info, so I'll ask it here and prepare for the ridicule surely to follow. Can we now use the OWLG whatever it's called to list our Wants or are we still waiting for this listing of Offers to close down finally?

When I tried to use it the other day, it didn't include my games offered so I assumed it was waiting until it reached the close of the offered games stage.

Any answers would be greatly appreciated, I've never done one of these before and to be honest, they seem overly confusing, even after reading several "guides" to using them. I think (just my opinion, so save the flaming please) that these probably should be FAR, FAR easier to be involved in - much of the technical stuff should just stay behind the scenes. Make these as idiot-proof as possible - for, well, idiots like me. LOL

Also, in case it gets lost in the shuffle, many thanks to RoamDog for setting this up. THANK YOU!
 
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wytefang wrote:
I'm having a hard time finding this info, so I'll ask it here and prepare for the ridicule surely to follow. Can we now use the OWLG whatever it's called to list our Wants or are we still waiting for this listing of Offers to close down finally?

When I tried to use it the other day, it didn't include my games offered so I assumed it was waiting until it reached the close of the offered games stage.

Any answers would be greatly appreciated, I've never done one of these before and to be honest, they seem overly confusing, even after reading several "guides" to using them. I think (just my opinion, so save the flaming please) that these probably should be FAR, FAR easier to be involved in - much of the technical stuff should just stay behind the scenes. Make these as idiot-proof as possible - for, well, idiots like me. LOL

Also, in case it gets lost in the shuffle, many thanks to RoamDog for setting this up. THANK YOU!
You have to wait for it to close and then he will announce when the olwlg is ready to go.

I only participated in one math trade previously, but ended up getting a good 5-6 trades on that one.. which broke records apparently.. I decided to construct my list myself instead of using the olwlg.
 
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JeffyJeff wrote:
even easier... I could setup the OLWLG so that those that only want to see games that meet that metric will only see those items.

After all, the only problem with what some label "crap" is that they have to "weed" through them. This way they wouldn't, but it wouldn't restrict stuff that may very well be wanted by others who aren't so restrictive.
I would *love* to have filters in the OLWLG. Preferably somewhat configurable ones. "Only show games on my want or wish list"; "only show games that have an average rating over X"; "only show games in the top N". Mix and match as you please.

While I personally would still look through the whole list (almost always), I'd still use this to, e.g., make sure I'd considered everything on my want list.
 
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wytefang wrote:
I'm having a hard time finding this info, so I'll ask it here and prepare for the ridicule surely to follow. Can we now use the OWLG whatever it's called to list our Wants or are we still waiting for this listing of Offers to close down finally?

When I tried to use it the other day, it didn't include my games offered so I assumed it was waiting until it reached the close of the offered games stage.

Any answers would be greatly appreciated, I've never done one of these before and to be honest, they seem overly confusing, even after reading several "guides" to using them. I think (just my opinion, so save the flaming please) that these probably should be FAR, FAR easier to be involved in - much of the technical stuff should just stay behind the scenes. Make these as idiot-proof as possible - for, well, idiots like me. LOL

Also, in case it gets lost in the shuffle, many thanks to RoamDog for setting this up. THANK YOU!
Anthony,

You should be able to use the OLWLG to start working on your wants, you just can not submit them until the list closes. Right after you submitted your games, the OLWLG was not "refreshed" by the moderator, so your items did not yet appear. They should appear now.
 
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Thank you guys for the help. One question I have is when I click on ADD in the OLWLG (what does that stand for, btw?) it opens a sub-menu of my games and asks me which one I'd want to trade for the game I've selected. Can I select any and/or all of them OR does that mean that I would trade them all for that single game?

In other words, does this program (OLWLG) allow me the flexibility to let it choose ANY of my games for any of the games I've selected or do I have to be specific?

 
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plasticaddict wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:


Also, I think 7.5+ is a little high.. games like Antike don't even apply.
Your opinion on the 7.5 is noted.
I would have to agree that 7.5 seems to be an odd cut-off.
Noted.


plasticaddict wrote:
I got an email inviting me to participate today, but it was after item #751... So, my options are limited.
My fault. When it looked like we were slowing down a bit yesterday morning, I started to send a few email invitations out. Unfortunately, I got busy with other tasks and did not get finished sending emails out til late afternoon or supper time yesterday. And the submission rate seemed to jump at some point yesterday. When I encouraged people in the email to hurry because a deadline was looming, I was thinking that they would still have 24 hours before we reached the 750-barrier.


plasticaddict wrote:
I have many items to trade which are both high quality and highly desirable based on the number of trade requests they generate for me. Unfortunately, none are rated above 7.5. So, I'll have to wait for the next MT.
The good news is that another MT will be along in a couple weeks so your wait will be short.


plasticaddict wrote:
Examples include San Marco (new & sealed), Battle Cry (new and sealed), Epic Duels (new & sealed), RoboRally (new & sealed), ...
RoboRally is elegible to be added to this MT as it is on the Request list. You could add any of your other games as sweeteners to RoboRally. I am surprised that San Marco is not on the Request List. Seems like it always ends up on there, but I just checked and did not see it.


plasticaddict wrote:
This is more of a 'whine' than anything. Other than that, I like all other aspects of this math trade. Hopefully I'll catch the next one earlier.
Again, not too late to jump in with RoboRally and sweeteners.
Or, other eligible tier 01 games that may be hiding in the back of your closet. Or just wait for a few weeks.
 
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wytefang wrote:
When I tried to use it the other day, it didn't include my games offered so I assumed it was waiting until it reached the close of the offered games stage.
It will show up... but you need to wait for the geeklist owner to tell the OLWLG to resync with the geeklist (the OLWLG is not part of BGG so doesn't have instant access to the items listed)
 
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Jayolas wrote:
Ok, so - I love Math Trades and I am up for this one but I tried reading through the rules and my eyes rolled back into my head.

Can I go ahead and put in a copy of 1960 the making of a president or not?
Yes. Rated 8 and net demand over 200. Clearly qualifies as tier 01.
 
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JeffyJeff wrote:
Craig Viau wrote:
Don't send me any emails saying oh by the way I have some crap games you might want but I don't want to look at your crap games just the good stuff.
Yea, someone else pointed to me offline that the way it was setup it front loaded the lower tiered items... which for those with the upper tiered items, doesn't look tempting to add their stuff.

I'm not a big fan of these type of restricted MT's now that there is no longer a limit on the number of items in the MT (TradeGenie was hardcoded at 499 items), but if we had to have it, it may have actually made more sense to have had the tougher restrictions for the earlier items so it was front loaded that way, and then opened it up for everything else.
Basically defeats the main intent of this particular MT (i.e. limit crap and focus on cream). An unlimited back end and this quickly spirals into a Cabin-Fever 2,000+ item MT with the bulk of the stuff as lower end stuff.

I totally acknowledge that the crap trades in MT after MT. And I totally acknowledge that the crap is the glue that links the cream into some of the trades. I just did not want, for this particular MT, for the low end stuff to be more than absolutely necessary.

I also totally acknowledge that anybody else is free to moderate their own MT with rules that focus on the lower-end stuff. And that it would be wildly successful.
 
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Still wondering if someone could answer my small question at the end of my last post??
 
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Craig Viau wrote:
Ok here comes some serious whinning. Cover your ears
No worries. This is the place to vent.

Craig Viau wrote:
I get an invitation to participate last night at 7:00 pm I come here today and the list is closed.
This MT was announced a week and a half ago in the official announcements thread. You are subscribed to that, right?
But ya, this is mostly my fault for going out of my way to personally invite people rather than just hoping that people are paying attention to the BGG forums.
RoamDog wrote:
Again, when it looked like we were slowing down a bit yesterday morning, I started to send a few email invitations out. Unfortunately, I got busy with other tasks and did not get finished sending emails out til late afternoon or supper time yesterday. And the submission rate seemed to jump at some point yesterday. When I encouraged people in the email to hurry because a deadline was looming, I was thinking that they would still have 24 hours before we reached the 750-barrier.
Obviously, I was hoping that you would take action when you received the email rather than waiting for a day, but I definitely did not think that you would only have 6 hours after you received the email to take action.


Craig Viau wrote:
Opps I'm sorry it's not closed I can offer my games over 7.5 to keep up the quality but before the 750 you can offer snakes and ladders.

What the hell. Why not just start the list and say only games over 7 from the word go. Why would we allow one group to post games below 5 and the rest of us have to be above 7.5 if you wanted quality only then set some reasonable limit even 6.5 or 6.75.
See my other responses as to the intent of this particular MT and why a certain amount of lower-end stuff is worthwhile.

Craig Viau wrote:
There are a ton of things I'd like to trade for but I'm sorry I don't have any games over 7.5 I'm willing to trade I'd just have to repurchase them.

Don't send me any emails saying oh by the way I have some crap games you might want but I don't want to look at your crap games just the good stuff.

Outrageous.
My apologies for frustrating you. The good news is that another MT will be coming along any day now and you can throw your items into that one.
 
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jdludlow wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
Would definitely like to hear your thought on how to convey the concept of "crap items are allowed at first, but at some point only cream items are allowed. And the concept of games (more desired) vs. non-games (less desired but not at all prohibited--just limited)" without using Tiers. Am totally open to how to convey that differently in my next MT.
A couple of things could make this easier.

1. Forget the "first 750 don't have to follow all of the rules, just some of the rules" part. Make the theme consistent across the entire trade.
The challenge (as Jeffy will testify) is that low end stuff trades (and trades and trades) and serves a useful function of connecting the cream of the crop in some trades. Unfortunately, some of us have all the low-end games already in our collection that we will ever need in this lifetime. So the goal of this MT was to focus on the cream while allowing just enough crap to lubricate the trade.


jdludlow wrote:
2. Have exactly 1 tier. A game either qualifies or it doesn't. My favorite one that I've seen used is to allow games which have more "wanted" than "for trade". It's a simple metric, and it avoids the confusion between the two ranking numbers.
I would definitely participate in such a MT if you want to moderate it.


jdludlow wrote:
Another example of a 1-tier MT would be "Every main item must be an 18xx game, with whatever sweeteners you want." It'll result in a low number of trades, but that's not really a big deal either on a niche MT with such a narrow focus.
I would also participate in such a MT if you want to moderate it. Unfortunately, I think that the "low number of trades" would actually be close to zero (forgot what the math guys call something that approaches zero but is not actually zero). And while I do not mind doing all the work as a moderator for a limited shot at things that I want, a probable trade for zero is even too low for me. I think that the most 18xx titles that have ever traded in a single MT is when I ran the 2007 version of this particular MT. Do not quote me, but I think that we had 8-9 18xx titles trade in that one.


jdludlow wrote:
dyfrgi wrote:
The excess of colors also makes it much more difficult to read.
RoamDog wrote:
Agreed. jdludlow is trying to come up with better formating for me.
Actually, that was more of a lament that I don't have time to reformat the rules. I'd like to run a MT as well, but that's not going to happen any time soon. I was bitching about this trade, and offering little in return. Hopefully, some of my ideas are still helpful though.
I would encourage you to give moderation a try especially for your NetDemand of +1 MT idea. It is NOT unreasonably hard. And there are plenty of experienced moderators that will usually answer questions and generally try to help.

However, it does consume quite a bit of personal bandwidth. A tiny bit less if you do a total-OLWLG MT and disallow manual submission.

But most importantly, you need to have very very very thick skin. As it is impossible to please all the people all the time and it is impossible to please some of the people any of the time and these are the people that post most often in the discussion threads.
Seriously, some folks treat each of these MTs like there will never ever be another one (even though they seem to pop up every couple weeks) and become indignant when the rules do not meet with their approval. Rather than just moving on and waiting for the next MT in a week or two.

I really have to chuckle at the folks that are just compelled to actually post a message explaining why they are not participating. I totally understand if people decide they do not like the rules and decide to pass, but it is just funny to me that they then think they need to explain why they are not participating like somebody might have missed them or something and wondered if they had perhaps fallen ill.
 
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I like the premise of this math trade. Looking at the items beyond 750, which there aren't many yet, the following do not meet the 7.5 average rating criteria. If they're on the request geeklist, they are not noted as such. I will updated this post periodically to try to keep it up to date to help out the moderator and remind others. I will remove the items from this list once they are "dealt with" by the poster or the moderator.

I do have one question...officially what are users who posted an ineligible item supposed to do with it. Should they change the item to "outside the scope of BGG" and note "not available" in the description (790 did this, which I like)? Thanks for running this, RoamDog!

757 Colosseum
760 Lords of the Spanish Main
781 The Awful Green Thing from Outer Space
782 Hera and Zeus
783 Illuminati: Deluxe Edition
791 Mordred
875 The War of the Worlds
876 Knights of Camelot
877 Down with the King
900 Battle Cry

Each of the above does not have an average rating of 7.5 or above. The only thing I may have missed is if any of them are GMT games, though I think I caught all of those. Let me know if there are any mistakes.
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shadow9d9 wrote:
7.0 and above need to be included.. plenty of amazing games in that range... otherwise expect only a small trickle to be added from here.

Think about it.. only the top 45 games of ranked games has 7.50 or higher.
Not sure how you are coming up with "45" but Monsterpocalypse is ranked #928 and is rated over 7.5. And there are a ton of other games ranked over 900 that are rated over 7.5. Now most of those do not have the NetDemand qualification but they clearly are rated over 7.5?
BTW, Monsterpocalypse (rnaked #928) not only is rated over 7.5 but is also a totally qualified tier 01 game as it has NetDemand over +25?


shadow9d9 wrote:
7.0 is the first 196.

I agree with Jeff.. top 1000 or even top 500 should be included..
Your opinion is noted.


shadow9d9 wrote:
otherwise this will end up being EXTREMELY limited.
That was the goal.
 
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justscott wrote:
I like the premise of this math trade. Looking at the items beyond 750, which there aren't many yet, the following do not meet the 7.5 average rating criteria. If they're on the request geeklist, they are not noted as such. I will updated this post periodically to try to keep it up to date to help out the moderator and remind others. I will remove the items from this list once they are "dealt with" by the poster or the moderator.

I do have one question...officially what are users who posted an ineligible item supposed to do with it. Should they change the item to "outside the scope of BGG" and note "not available" in the description (790 did this, which I like)? Thanks for running this, RoamDog!

756 Cuba
757 Colosseum
760 Lords of the Spanish Main
769 The Settlers of the Stone Age (item still listed but description says not available)
781 The Awful Green Thing from Outer Space
782 Hera and Zeus
783 Illuminati: Deluxe Edition
791 Mordred
796 Galactic Emperor

Each of the above does not have an average rating of 7.5 or above. The only thing I may have missed is if any of them are GMT games, though I think I caught all of those. Let me know if there are any mistakes.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the help.
And yes, anybody that does inadvertently post an ineligible offer should
Quote:
simply edit the original text (but do NOT delete the entry from the GL), and change its description to "Item No Longer Available, I'll submit a blank want list" or text to that effect. And then remember to submit a blank Want List when the time comes.


BTW, Galactic Emperor is qualified as it is on the Request GeekList.

 
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RoamDog wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
7.0 and above need to be included.. plenty of amazing games in that range... otherwise expect only a small trickle to be added from here.

Think about it.. only the top 45 games of ranked games has 7.50 or higher.
Not sure how you are coming up with "45" but Monsterpocalypse is ranked #928 and is rated over 7.5. And there are a ton of other games ranked over 900 that are rated over 7.5. Now most of those do not have the NetDemand qualification but they clearly are rated over 7.5?
BTW, Monsterpocalypse (rnaked #928) not only is rated over 7.5 but is also a totally qualified tier 01 game as it has NetDemand over +25?


shadow9d9 wrote:
7.0 is the first 196.

I agree with Jeff.. top 1000 or even top 500 should be included..
Your opinion is noted.


shadow9d9 wrote:
otherwise this will end up being EXTREMELY limited.
That was the goal.
Aye, BGG uses 2 different numbers. Look in the top 50 how the rating goes under 7.5 after 45, for the 2nd number.

If it is what you wanted, that is fine with me. But it was exciting to watch the new contributions before.. only about 5 items were added all day today, in comparison.
 
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Rokkr wrote:
plasticaddict wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:


Also, I think 7.5+ is a little high.. games like Antike don't even apply.
Your opinion on the 7.5 is noted.
I would have to agree that 7.5 seems to be an odd cut-off.
I got an email inviting me to participate today, but it was after item #751... So, my options are limited.
I have many items to trade which are both high quality and highly desirable based on the number of trade requests they generate for me. Unfortunately, none are rated above 7.5. So, I'll have to wait for the next MT.
Examples include San Marco (new & sealed), Battle Cry (new and sealed), Epic Duels (new & sealed), RoboRally (new & sealed), ...

This is more of a 'whine' than anything. Other than that, I like all other aspects of this math trade. Hopefully I'll catch the next one earlier.
Actually the 7.5 number cuts off the top 500 at 45, so only unranked games below the top 45 with high ratings are eligible.
This excludes:
Galaxy Trucker
Dune
Roads & Boats
Antiquity
and yes the list of high end games not eligible goes on almost endlessly.
This is simply wrong. Please ignore this data as it is not correct. Go to Advanced Search and choose rating between 7.45 and 10 (and click to ignore expansions if you want to further restrict the list--although expansions can be eligible tier 01 games).

Update: Rik and I have been looking at 2 different averages maintained by BGG. For this MT we are using the less restrictive average so there are tons of games that have a rating of 7.5 or higher.
 
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Quote:
And yes, anybody that does inadvertently post an ineligible offer should
wrote:
simply edit the original text (but do NOT delete the entry from the GL), and change its description to "Item No Longer Available, I'll submit a blank want list" or text to that effect. And then remember to submit a blank Want List when the time comes.
[/q]

I read that, but as a point of clarification, would you like them to change the actual item on the geeklist so the game doesn't show up at all? That would for sure eliminate any possible confusion. See #790 for example.
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shadow9d9 wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:
7.0 and above need to be included.. plenty of amazing games in that range... otherwise expect only a small trickle to be added from here.

Think about it.. only the top 45 games of ranked games has 7.50 or higher.
Not sure how you are coming up with "45" but Monsterpocalypse is ranked #928 and is rated over 7.5. And there are a ton of other games ranked over 900 that are rated over 7.5. Now most of those do not have the NetDemand qualification but they clearly are rated over 7.5?
BTW, Monsterpocalypse (rnaked #928) not only is rated over 7.5 but is also a totally qualified tier 01 game as it has NetDemand over +25?


shadow9d9 wrote:
7.0 is the first 196.

I agree with Jeff.. top 1000 or even top 500 should be included..
Your opinion is noted.


shadow9d9 wrote:
otherwise this will end up being EXTREMELY limited.
That was the goal.
Aye, BGG uses 2 different numbers. Look in the top 50 how the rating goes under 7.5 after 45, for the 2nd number.
Ah. I see where you were getting your number now. That must be the fake average that BGG generates with its Baynesian formula.
I'll have to clarify the rules to tell people to look at the true average. Thank you for providing the details causing the confusion related to the average.

shadow9d9 wrote:
If it is what you wanted, that is fine with me. But it was exciting to watch the new contributions before.. only about 5 items were added all day today, in comparison.
Yep. That was expected. During the crap phase a ton of stuff comes out of the woodwork most of which are not exciting at all. During the cream phase the submissions slow to a trickle, but they are all exciting and the trickle will probably end up on every single Want List.

However, do not be discouraged. The next MT will probably have no restrictions whatsoever as a backlash to this MT and you will again be able to watch a ton of crap flow at a rapid pace for the the whole MT.
 
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wytefang wrote:
Still wondering if someone could answer my small question at the end of my last post??
I think that this answers your question...
RoamDog wrote:
greatredwarrior wrote:
I've got a question: in the OLWLG program, if I click a whole bunch of stuff does the program think I'm willing to trade ANY of those items for the wanted item, or ALL of those items for the listed item?
JeffyJeff may provide more details, but...
If you are in step 3 then you are saying that you would trade ANY of your games that you check for the item being offered.
If you are in step 4 then for each row (item that somebody else has offered) you are saying that you would trade ANY of your games that you check for the item offered on that row.
So, make 110% sure that you are OK with trading any of the items you check for the offered item.

Please tell me if this did not answer your question and I will try again.
 
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I think some grumblers are completely overlooking the fact that RoamDog is doing this of his own volition as a service/kindness for other users who would otherwise have to set-up one of these themselves or wait for a different MT. It's extremely ungrateful to the creator of this MT to be griping at him, regardless of how selective or unusual his MT may be (or not).

Read the rules, if you met them, then great, if not, suck it up and find another MT. It's really that simple. I had no idea how whiny this community could get - pretty sad considering it's an older, supposedly more "mature" community. Makes us all look bad by association. Yeesh!

PS. Thanks RoamDog for the answer about the OLWLG...
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Well, if they didn't post to say why they weren't participating, the moderator might never know about their particular complaints.
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Important clarification to the rules.

BGG uses two different averages. The True Average or Raw Average is the actual average of all the users individual ratings.

There is also a pseudo-average or Bayesian average which is a mathematically-adjusted average that uses some fake ratings to facilitate BGG game ranking. (This is the average that is displayed if you use the Browse function).

For this MT we only care about the True Average. This can be seen on the individual game page for each game. It is also displayed if you use the Advanced Search function.

So, there are over 2,500 games (not 45) that have a rating of 7.5 or higher (we will round 7.455 up to 7.5). There are even games ranked in the #1000-#1200 range that have a rating over 7.5.
Now clearly all of these games meet the rating qualification for tier 01 status. However, most of those 2,500 games will not meet the NetDemand qualification for tier 01 status. So, you still need to validate your offers prior to posting but tier 01 is NOT just the games ranked between 1 - 45.

I hope that this addresses some of the concerns that have been expressed.
 
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Occu Pant
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Clive
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JeffyJeff wrote:
jdludlow wrote:
2. Have exactly 1 tier. A game either qualifies or it doesn't. My favorite one that I've seen used is to allow games which have more "wanted" than "for trade". It's a simple metric, and it avoids the confusion between the two ranking numbers.
even easier... I could setup the OLWLG so that those that only want to see games that meet that metric will only see those items.

After all, the only problem with what some label "crap" is that they have to "weed" through them. This way they wouldn't, but it wouldn't restrict stuff that may very well be wanted by others who aren't so restrictive.
This would be yet another great addition to the OLWLG. But it does not really completely address the issue for me (although it might for others). I like to look at the pretty pictures associated with the entries and I like to read the comments added to the offers. Which is why I actually start by going through the actual GeekList itself and then switch to the OLWLG. Don't get me wrong, I do not think that I would participate at all in MT's if the OLWLG was not available, but I do not rely on it solely.
Now if the GeekLists themselves could be filterable that would change things. Of course even before that I'd like to be able to see more than 25 entries per page. And a bunch of other format/interface changes.
 
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Rik Van Horn
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Livonia
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RoamDog wrote:
Rokkr wrote:
plasticaddict wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
shadow9d9 wrote:


Also, I think 7.5+ is a little high.. games like Antike don't even apply.
Your opinion on the 7.5 is noted.
I would have to agree that 7.5 seems to be an odd cut-off.
I got an email inviting me to participate today, but it was after item #751... So, my options are limited.
I have many items to trade which are both high quality and highly desirable based on the number of trade requests they generate for me. Unfortunately, none are rated above 7.5. So, I'll have to wait for the next MT.
Examples include San Marco (new & sealed), Battle Cry (new and sealed), Epic Duels (new & sealed), RoboRally (new & sealed), ...

This is more of a 'whine' than anything. Other than that, I like all other aspects of this math trade. Hopefully I'll catch the next one earlier.
Actually the 7.5 number cuts off the top 500 at 45, so only unranked games below the top 45 with high ratings are eligible.
This excludes:
Galaxy Trucker
Dune
Roads & Boats
Antiquity
and yes the list of high end games not eligible goes on almost endlessly.
This is simply wrong. Please ignore this data as it is not correct. Go to Advanced Search and choose rating between 7.45 and 10 (and click to ignore expansions if you want to further restrict the list--although expansions can be eligible tier 01 games).
Damn,I'm an idiot. How could I possibly have made such a dumb mistake?
 
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