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Subject: Martin Wallace accuses Winsome/FRED of copyright infraction rss

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I just have to say, thank goodness this whole thing is back on again, I was getting bored of not seeing controversy.
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Jythier wrote:
I just have to say, thank goodness this whole thing is back on again, I was getting bored of not seeing controversy.


I think all participants in this thread should be given free admission to BGGCon 2009, and free room and board, on the condition that they agree to participate in a no-holds-barred cage match in the lobby of the hotel, and they agree to be filmed during the event...

...no, wait, I've got a better contest to settle this...a pie fight...

I imagine it would go something like this...

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Hammy wrote:
lamplite wrote:
I thought trade marks covered names such as the title, and copyright covered text and artwork? By no means am I taking sides, just observing and asking.


Correct they do.

The 'name' of the game on the box is a piece of 'artwork' it was painted by hand by Peter Dennis who was paid to do this work by Warfrog. Just like John Bohrer was paid by Warfrog for his development work on the game.

Martin tried to trademark the name "Age of Steam", John objected and because he has access to free legal support Martin did not succeed with his trade mark application or at least that is my understanding of some of the more recent sillyness.


Martin tried to trademark "Age of Steam?" You gotta be @#$%@ me.

If that's true, Martin didn't lose because he didn't have lawyers, he lost because a judge who saw common sense said...you're WHAT?

Just how much did you pay the originators of that term? You know, the guys from several decades before you? Just how much did you pay every flunking historian who's written a book with that title in it?

You must mean that Martin tried to call the title on the boilerplate as a trademark...not the term itself...because if he actually tried to trademark the term..."Age of Steam" that's pretty stupid.

In fact, I think Martin said...it was the Logo on the Boilerplate...NOT the term itself. (Trying to trademark the actual term...that's like trying to trademark the words...Civil War so no other company or wargame can ever use it again...much less historians, authors, etc).

Just noting...I'm think it has to be the actual LOGO ON BOILERPLATE they were talking about, not the term itself.

On that, I would imagine that itself could be a pretty open and shut case...and I'm not certain why the $50 consultation fee (though that could be waived) and a anywhere from $500 to $1000 would be too much to spend by someone as concerned about this as Wallace seemed to be in the quoted post. That is if that is all he was after was the Boiler plate image.

It's easily won, and you can do counter in order to get back the fees payable for court costs in addition to lawyer fees. It shouldn't be hard to win on JUST the logo there. Now if there was MORE involved...that's a different matter.

So overall, I'm a little confused. The Boilerplate Logo if truly owned by Martin Wallace should be an open and shut case easily winnable and costs recouped by the win.

Now if there are other areas which are not quite as clear cut...OR if they truly don't own the rights or have no evidence that they own the original rights for the art of the boilerplate Logo...then it isn't quite as easily won...and then you may run into financial...difficulties.
 
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GreyLord wrote:
So overall, I'm a little confused.


Yes, you are.

Martin filed an application to trademark the phrase "Age of Steam" for use with train games.

If you think that is so crazy, just try using the word "Monopoly" or "Risk" for financial or war games and see how far it gets you, even if you use artwork nothing like that in the Hasbro games.

Saying, "How can Hasbro trademark a single word that has been around for centuries? You gotta be @#$%@ me." won't be very effective in not getting you thoroughly slapped down. It also just may get you slapped with a contempt citation if you actually swore at the judge.
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SpaceButler wrote:
Doesn't this forum have moderators?


It does. Do what I have done - flag the post as a rules violation by clicking on the red cross. The mods will react in due course.

Cheers,

Giles.

Edit: and I agree with you 100% Nils.
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GreyLord wrote:
Hammy wrote:
lamplite wrote:
I thought trade marks covered names such as the title, and copyright covered text and artwork? By no means am I taking sides, just observing and asking.


Correct they do.

The 'name' of the game on the box is a piece of 'artwork' it was painted by hand by Peter Dennis who was paid to do this work by Warfrog. Just like John Bohrer was paid by Warfrog for his development work on the game.

Martin tried to trademark the name "Age of Steam", John objected and because he has access to free legal support Martin did not succeed with his trade mark application or at least that is my understanding of some of the more recent sillyness.


Martin tried to trademark "Age of Steam?" You gotta be @#$%@ me.

If that's true, Martin didn't lose because he didn't have lawyers, he lost because a judge who saw common sense said...you're WHAT?

Just how much did you pay the originators of that term? You know, the guys from several decades before you? Just how much did you pay every flunking historian who's written a book with that title in it?


Those other uses probably do not matter. Trademarks apply to a certain product area (in this particular case I think it is Toys and Games). Hence why there are trademarks for Windows, Apple and many other everyday words. Hence why Vax could be a trademark for a DEC computer and for a vacuum cleaner simultaneously.


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Please let's put Hitler back in the don't-go-there-box and leave him there.

As Giles said, the best way to deal with an offending post is to click the little red X. That has the added side-benefit of closing that post for you so you never have to see it again.

Once enough people X out the post, it is collapsed for other users by default - so they don't have to see it either.

If you want to raise something with a Moderator, click the Moderators link in the forum menu bar and pick which of us is most likely to be awake & online. You can always PM one of us directly.
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Psauberer wrote:
GreyLord wrote:
So overall, I'm a little confused.


Yes, you are.

Martin filed an application to trademark the phrase "Age of Steam" for use with train games.

If you think that is so crazy, just try using the word "Monopoly" or "Risk" for financial or war games and see how far it gets you, even if you use artwork nothing like that in the Hasbro games.

Saying, "How can Hasbro trademark a single word that has been around for centuries? You gotta be @#$%@ me." won't be very effective in not getting you thoroughly slapped down. It also just may get you slapped with a contempt citation if you actually swore at the judge.


Well, then yes, I can tell you why Wallace lost the lawsuit. Perhaps he should investigate exactly what Hasbro has trademarked on those games, instead of throwing fits and making those who came to a board interested in a game...leave very UNINTERESTED in a game.

On the brightside...it means he get's his wish of stopping someone from buying this "3rd" edition.

On the downside it means someone who's not going to buy his "steam" version either.

You CAN still use the words monopoly and risk in boardgames...by the way...just for your information. It's all on how you present it, and how you use it on the game.

As stated before, I think something is mistaken about what he did. Trying to trademark that phrase by itself is legal suicide in some ways,

Trademark is a VISUAL thing...normally not just a bunch of words. Going by simply the word and phrase is possible, but if a common use term used in other areas (such as a historical phrase like Age of Steam) probably will get you so many refutions and exclamations against it that it's never going to give you the trademark. NOT smart...and you're probably going to lose that legally...and everyone else won't even need a rights lawyer to defeat it!!!!
If one wants to do something like that then you are right, see what Hasbro has done to protect their game rights in titles rather than go and try to trademark a phrase.

How you are presenting it makes it sound like he tried to win something that was obvious he'd lose, lawyer or not. FRED wouldn't even need Lawyers to defeat that, free legal advice, FRED didn't even need a rights lawyer there, they just needed a lawyer to help them fill out paperwork, as to try to trademark the phrase by itself would be self defeating to the person trying to trademark it.

Hence why I'm convinced he HAD TO HAVE been doing something different, such as going over the rights to the boilerplate title, or something else such as electronic rights or a whole slew of other things that make a LOT more sense and accomplish something similar.

Otherwise it's like those guys who went off and tried to get the rights saying they owned the term the internet in the late 90's...it's so ludicrous people are just going to blink and say...wha????

If Martin tried that, it sounds like he didn't even go hire a laywer or even get a consultation...which by itself is NOT so expensive as to be prohibitive. In fact, it's quite easily attainable.

Am I confused...YES. NOT about Rights laws in the least, but about exactly what they were actually trying to obtain the rights to. Getting rights for something is normally not all that hard...as long as you are trying to get the rights for the correct thing (Like a Logo, title, etc...AS WOULD BE DEPICTED ON THE BOILERPLATE or IN THAT TYPE OF WORDING OR IN THAT FASHION).

Getting it for a traingame specifically, is a better try...but then you are ASSUMING that the lawyers know exactly why this will be any different than train game in general, or a logo rights in general. Rights CAN transcend a single arena as well, so even if it's just your thought to get it over a traingame, it's probably going to be contested in several other areas as well. For example, the trademark Railroad Tycoon which can be used as good example due to it's connections to Age of Steam, in it's presentation, now covers more than just software, but everything connected to that line.

Hence why he'd lose the claim anyways, since Age of Steam is already utilized in a fashion that would cross over into granting the rights to the phrase "Age of Steam." if someone else wanted it. He's not going to win the battle on that phrase simply because too many already have the ability and rights to use it before him...if it were ever given up....which at this point...due to it's common usage...probably won't be.

He had to have been smarter then this. Either that or was so cheap he didn't hire or even consult a lawyer on this matter.

My guess is he did try to get the rights, but it wasn't simply to the phrase "Age of Steam", it was to an actual visual representation of such a term that would be much more easily identifiable to his game or items such as the Boilerplate LOGO.

He's not going to win a court battle against TV productions studios which have already optioned the rights to the title using that phrase, hence FRED doesn't have to do anything, since the rights to that phrase automatically are trampling on the options already granted (though probably which will NEVER be used) to the studios which ALSO use the phrase.

Hence hopefully the above explains in MORE detail why he wouldn't be trying to get the "Trademark" only to the phrase, and had to actually be trying to get a real trademark which involves some sort of symbology (and once again...to emphasis, like the Boilerplate logo) rather than something already in trademark options owned by people with a LOT more money then he has or FRED has (at least I would assume, it could be he has more money then Studios and other such arenas that may have a vested interest in that phrase, options which I may also say they most likely will NEVER use).
 
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andyl wrote:
GreyLord wrote:
Hammy wrote:
lamplite wrote:
I thought trade marks covered names such as the title, and copyright covered text and artwork? By no means am I taking sides, just observing and asking.


Correct they do.

The 'name' of the game on the box is a piece of 'artwork' it was painted by hand by Peter Dennis who was paid to do this work by Warfrog. Just like John Bohrer was paid by Warfrog for his development work on the game.

Martin tried to trademark the name "Age of Steam", John objected and because he has access to free legal support Martin did not succeed with his trade mark application or at least that is my understanding of some of the more recent sillyness.


Martin tried to trademark "Age of Steam?" You gotta be @#$%@ me.

If that's true, Martin didn't lose because he didn't have lawyers, he lost because a judge who saw common sense said...you're WHAT?

Just how much did you pay the originators of that term? You know, the guys from several decades before you? Just how much did you pay every flunking historian who's written a book with that title in it?


Those other uses probably do not matter. Trademarks apply to a certain product area (in this particular case I think it is Toys and Games). Hence why there are trademarks for Windows, Apple and many other everyday words. Hence why Vax could be a trademark for a DEC computer and for a vacuum cleaner simultaneously.




Yes, but normally these items can also be included as options in the entertainment industry (such as with boardgames). These items would include the ability to make games off of movies, other games, etc.

Hence if I for some odd reason made a Video game and called it Halo (just for example) and included options with the lawyers in it to allow for spinoffs, then I'd also have to rights to that for boardgames, TV shows, books, etc.

Normally I'd make it easy and have the Halo symbology as the Trademark, and the context of the word using it Trademarked as well. Hence it is only a video game, but expands to be included in many MORE areas as well.

I'd think since there are many books, documentaries, and even a movie that utilize the phrase, trying to trademark it by itself would prove troublesome if not nigh impossible, and for reasons having NOTHING to do with FRED. It would depend on if one could lay claim to the phrase as to having those rights already. In which case he should have gotten a lawyer ANYWAYS in order to help guide him through it and do the research rather than doing it himself, if that's what he did.

Maybe he did do that, but it makes a LOT More sense that he tried to trademark the phrase in the context of the boilerplate logo, or some other easily recognizeable thing which could then give him broader rights (like perhaps he wants to make a TV series). Of course, it works the opposite way as well, since there have been various entertainment models that have already used the phrase, it's pretty probable one of them have already used it in a trademark context for entertainment. The trick for the lawyer is finding a way around that trademark to install his own trademark.
 
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GreyLord wrote:

On the brightside...it means he get's his wish of stopping someone from buying this "3rd" edition.
...

You CAN still use the words monopoly and risk in boardgames...by the way...just for your information. It's all on how you present it, and how you use it on the game.


I stopped reading there. 2 false sentences right at the beginning tells me the rest can't be better.

Wallace won't stop anyone from getting the 3rd edition as getting an injunction simply for a graphic copyright violation is almost impossible. The game is already in store anyway. What he'll most probably get though is monetary compensation.

As for using the word Monopoly or Risk as the main title of a boardgame, just try!!! The words are registered trademarks.
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Greylord,

Not that I would recommend it to anyone, but you can find (here on BGG) the entire story, including links to the court filings, etc.

Your lack of knowledge of the full story makes your posts non-sensical.

This logo art issue is a new wrinkle in this story and does not relate to the original disagreement and the legal machinations. Many electrons have died here in the forums discussing the whole thing.

Since so many folks have weighed in in the same blustery, self-important way, I might simply say welcome to the club but since even non-super-genius experts in copyright/trademark law like me recognize huge holes in your posts (mainly due to your lack of knowledge of the history of this thing) you might want to look into the matter more so that your next grand pronouncement will hold more water.
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This whole business is just sad really... In my opinion... shake



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I think that people are getting a little lost as to what Martin's complaint is about.

It's not about the words Age of Steam or even the logo but the use of the original artwork.

The AoS title on the new box is an exact duplication of the original, by that I mean it was probably scanned from the original or, more likely, off the box lid of a previous version.

Warfrog paid for the artwork so the copyright will either belong to them or the illustrator depending on the terms of the contract.

FRED can't use the original artwork from the Warfrog version without permission, even if JB owned all the rights to AoS.

I really don't know why FRED just didn't get someone to draw up a new piece of artwork, it wouldn't have been difficult. They changed everything else, this seems like a really stupid mistake.

- Garry
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Garry wrote:
The AoS title on the new box is an exact duplication of the original, by that I mean it was probably scanned from the original or, more likely, off the box lid of a previous version.


That artwork in digital form has been being provided to Age of Steam map developers for some years.

Quote:
Warfrog paid for the artwork so the copyright will either belong to them or the illustrator depending on the terms of the contract.


That's a little less clear. Relationships between Warfrog and Winsome (I won't call them contracts as there seem to have been none) could easily result in that license transferring to Winsome. The fact that Winsome were handing out the logo for many years to Age of Steam map developers and licensees puts established and accepted behaviour on Winsome's side as there was no debate raised by Warfrog at that time (that I know of).
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Kinwolf wrote:
GreyLord wrote:

On the brightside...it means he get's his wish of stopping someone from buying this "3rd" edition.
...

You CAN still use the words monopoly and risk in boardgames...by the way...just for your information. It's all on how you present it, and how you use it on the game.


I stopped reading there. 2 false sentences right at the beginning tells me the rest can't be better.

Wallace won't stop anyone from getting the 3rd edition as getting an injunction simply for a graphic copyright violation is almost impossible. The game is already in store anyway. What he'll most probably get though is monetary compensation.

As for using the word Monopoly or Risk as the main title of a boardgame, just try!!! The words are registered trademarks.


WTH.

I'm not getting it! DUH!!!!

you're SO biased You aren't even understanding what I'm typing.
 
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clearclaw wrote:
Garry wrote:
The AoS title on the new box is an exact duplication of the original, by that I mean it was probably scanned from the original or, more likely, off the box lid of a previous version.


That artwork in digital form has been being provided to Age of Steam map developers for some years.

Quote:
Warfrog paid for the artwork so the copyright will either belong to them or the illustrator depending on the terms of the contract.


That's a little less clear. Relationships between Warfrog and Winsome (I won't call them contracts as there seem to have been none) could easily result in that license transferring to Winsome. The fact that Winsome were handing out the logo for many years to Age of Steam map developers and licensees puts established and accepted behaviour on Winsome's side as there was no debate raised by Warfrog at that time (that I know of).


If this carries through, what would that mean for people like Ted Alspach, who have been producing expansions for profit using that exact same emblem? Would they be subject to the same penalties?
 
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Garry wrote:
I think that people are getting a little lost as to what Martin's complaint is about.

It's not about the words Age of Steam or even the logo but the use of the original artwork.

The AoS title on the new box is an exact duplication of the original, by that I mean it was probably scanned from the original or, more likely, off the box lid of a previous version.

Warfrog paid for the artwork so the copyright will either belong to them or the illustrator depending on the terms of the contract.

FRED can't use the original artwork from the Warfrog version without permission, even if JB owned all the rights to AoS.

I really don't know why FRED just didn't get someone to draw up a new piece of artwork, it wouldn't have been difficult. They changed everything else, this seems like a really stupid mistake.

- Garry


That's EXACTLY what it sounded like to me.

When someone claimed something else that was ridiculous I couldn't believe my ears. I figured Mr. Wallace was MUCH smarter than that.

From what I understand Martin Wallace had some things dealing directly with the Age of Steam artwork replication.

People are trying to expand it into more from the sounds of it...and whilst there sounds to be some rather bad blood between some game developers, that is the crutching point.

Personally I'd have preferred Wallace not go off on his spill, which made it so instantly lost ALL interest in AoS or Steam. (AoS sounds like it sold out anyways, but I still won't be buying a copy of it from those who may have it available).

I also dislike people making what sound like ridiculous claims of what is going on. Some like me will say...NO WAY that's what's going on, because of just how bad a light it would make Mr. Wallace appear in.

However, others may actually buy into that type of stuff, and develop opinions that are worse then mine.

From what I understand artists that worked on AoS 1&2 editions worked on AoS 3rd as well. There are others involved outside of Mr. Wallace that this hurts as well.

On the same side, this turns others off not just to steam (like I am now) but to any Wallace game, which is a shame also (as I stated, I would like to try steel driver in the future).

Non of this stuff helps, all of it hurts, and the more grandiose people try to make their favored sides attempt at something, doesn't help anything.

Ironically, except for being turned off of both games, I am somewhat neutral on the matter. However, sometimes neutrality on the matter really ticks people on both sides off because I'm not cheering cries of exultion for either one of their champions.

Anyways, I've cleared it up off board, and like this post, am not really adding anything new.

I came interested in AoS and then found out about Steam, saw the rant, got turned off, and now won't support either.
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GreyLord wrote:
Garry wrote:
I think that people are getting a little lost as to what Martin's complaint is about.

It's not about the words Age of Steam or even the logo but the use of the original artwork.

The AoS title on the new box is an exact duplication of the original, by that I mean it was probably scanned from the original or, more likely, off the box lid of a previous version.

Warfrog paid for the artwork so the copyright will either belong to them or the illustrator depending on the terms of the contract.

FRED can't use the original artwork from the Warfrog version without permission, even if JB owned all the rights to AoS.

I really don't know why FRED just didn't get someone to draw up a new piece of artwork, it wouldn't have been difficult. They changed everything else, this seems like a really stupid mistake.


- Garry


That's EXACTLY what it sounded like to me.

When someone claimed something else that was ridiculous I couldn't believe my ears. I figured Mr. Wallace was MUCH smarter than that.

From what I understand Martin Wallace had some things dealing directly with the Age of Steam artwork replication.

People are trying to expand it into more from the sounds of it...and whilst there sounds to be some rather bad blood between some game developers, that is the crutching point....


Sean, it sounds like you are combining two separate events into one and being confused about it. A year or so ago Martin Wallace decided to publish Age of Steam 3rd edition through Mayfair. He believed he owned the rights to the game to be able to do so. He was contested in this by John Bohrer. It went to the lawyers and Martin Wallace backed down and changed the name of the game he had planned on releasing as "Age of Steam 3rd edition" to "Steam".

Subsequently John Bohrer licensed classic Age of Steam to be republished by FRED as "Age of Steam 3rd Edition". Aside from some cosmetic changes this newest edition is identical to previous editions and it recently hit stores. Now in a seperate action, Martin Wallace is claiming that some of the art (specifically the boilerplate logo) used on the recently released game belongs to him and was not obtained with his permission. He plans to go after FRED for this infringement.

Nobody is trying to add things in. Its just that people who have followed the story for the past year or so are not taking time to distinguish between the two events and may even be using phrases like "tried to trademark the name" when they mean he believed he owned the rights to publish the game and tried to publish what is now "Steam" as "Age of Steam, 3rd edition". I don't recall if that meant he specifically tried to trademark the title or not. I do know that he and Mayfair absolutely intended for what will be "Steam" to be called "Age of Steam. 3rd Edition" and they were blocked in this attempt by John Bohrer's legal action.

So now the big question is...Did I get it right? How stupid do I sound?
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I'm just glad Martin's not bitter...

Seriously though, after FRED offered Martin credit and a royalty which he rejected he has to have been waiting in the bushes to pounce on something like this and loves the fact that he's successfully manipulated so many to view him as the savior and FRED/JB as the evil duo. It takes two to tango.

So much for Martin's "I'm the bigger man and shall back down" post so many months ago. He's been waiting, waiting, waiting to stir up more trouble because of his fued with JB and now because FRED didn't do exactly as Martin wanted them to he's implicating them.

I'm not making a judgement on the artwork... I know only what I've read here about that. I've just lost a LOT of respect for Martin Wallace... not as a game designer... but as a person. And I'm not saying in the MW/JB fued that JB was right... like I said, it takes two to tango. I just feel bad for FRED getting caught up in this, but I guess that's the risk of publishing a game with fueding "co-authors".

I look forward to more facts and hearing the other sides of the story...
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Seriously, I couldn't care less about this specific incident, but I've followed the discussion as I am curious.

As for the "who owns Age of Steam" none of us have any frigging clue. There are several people claiming different things as to what rights should befall who, and I bet about no one here even knows one half percent of what has been said and done, not to mention the legal knowledge enough to judge the truth if we had it.

Thinking the designer's point of view must be right just because the game is awesome, is the behaviour of an idiot.

The logotype, sure, that might be Warfrog's, but seriously… Why get extra upset about THAT? I know some people were upset to begin with, but why about the logo? For crying out loud, it IS (a new version of) the same game. Advertising it as such, is that a moral crime? I mean, come on.

Hammy wrote:
John as I said earlier was paid in cash for his development work. To then claim that the work he was paid to do means he owns the rights to the game is utterly wrong.


Eh… no.

If someone pays you to write a novel, and you do, it does NOT mean you've lost your right to the novel. Doesn't matter if Bohrer was paid in advance or afterwards for the development of the game; the work is still his (or Wallace's). The money you get paid for doing something, translating something, designing something, is for a one-shot use only. Any reprint is to be paid for - again. You release a pocket-version of a novel? Pay the author - again. You change the cover illustration? Pay the author - again. If the right to the whatever-you-were-paid-to-develop was explicitly transferred to the paying company, or if you're employed at the company in question, then that's another story. But you don't lose rights to something you've done just because someone pays you.
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James Hamilton
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JohnRayJr wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Hammy wrote:
I know that John 'extracted' copies of Age of Steam from my stock in the German warehouse without my permission.


I don't know what this means, but it sounds pretty awful.


Yeah how could he do this if nothing was in writing? (Just based on a handshake)


Good question.

All I know is that somehow a box of AoS 2nd edition (i.e. the Warfrog reprint) was shipped to John in the US. I have a horrible feeling I ended up paying the shipping as well.

I know for a fact that John made a lot more money than I did out of the reprint because of my non payment by the US distributor
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Bruce Murphy
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Hammy wrote:
Good question.

Here's another one. Out of morbid curiosity, do you have an explanation for all the copyright Winsome statements on the back of AoS 1st and second editions?

B>
 
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GreyLord wrote:

My guess is ...


Lots of guesses, lots of assumptions, lots of misapprehensions, and lots of mistakes.

It would be better not to guess, but to actually look up a little trademark or copyright law, and if you're interested to weigh in several times on this thread, to try to see what various people who have been directly involved with the problem have said over the last year or two. That way you might manage to be slightly less than 100% wrong with almost everything you posted.
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clearclaw wrote:
Garry wrote:
The AoS title on the new box is an exact duplication of the original, by that I mean it was probably scanned from the original or, more likely, off the box lid of a previous version.


That artwork in digital form has been being provided to Age of Steam map developers for some years.

By whom?
Quote:

Quote:
Warfrog paid for the artwork so the copyright will either belong to them or the illustrator depending on the terms of the contract.


That's a little less clear. Relationships between Warfrog and Winsome (I won't call them contracts as there seem to have been none) could easily result in that license transferring to Winsome. The fact that Winsome were handing out the logo for many years to Age of Steam map developers and licensees puts established and accepted behaviour on Winsome's side as there was no debate raised by Warfrog at that time (that I know of).

Then you don't understand copyright enforcement particularly well. unlike a trademark that has to be protected at all turns or future protection is lost, with copyright infringement you can choose when - or if - to go after the infringers. If I copy one CD for my own use, chances are nothing will happen to me. If you then copy that same CD at a duplication plant and start selling it out of the back of your car, you have to expect the record company's lawyers will come after you, and saying "But Richard copied it first, and you did nothing about him" won't work. At all.

If Winsome are going to claim that artwork commissioned and paid for by Warfrog is owned by Winsome, they'll need to do a lot better than pointing to a logo on the back of a box.
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Zimeon wrote:

Hammy wrote:
John as I said earlier was paid in cash for his development work. To then claim that the work he was paid to do means he owns the rights to the game is utterly wrong.


Eh… no.


Eh ... generally yes. Look up "works for hire" sometime. I fear that your treading into the realms of lacking legal knowledge that you yourself counselled against in paragraph 2.
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