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Subject: "Valley of Darkness": an unofficial mini-expansion rss

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Sean McCarthy
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This is the first visually pleasing result of my desire to tinker with the game. I've tweaked a couple rules and cards for play balance, and added a couple new characters for fun. As a brief warning: there are some mild spoilers from early season two here.


Here's the first thing: this replaces the Kobol card that comes with the game and really changes the pacing. My group has been playing with some version of these changes for a while; you can see an earlier version here.

The goal is to slightly reduce the number of jumps needed, slightly increase the number of crises per jump, give some opportunities for Cylon ship double-moves even when there is no revealed Cylon, make games with two Cylons a bit easier, smooth the luck element of when the Cylon loyalty cards are given out, and make it so human victory is often in possible reach for more than one jump, yet more often dependent on which destinations are drawn.

As I mentioned, we've used rules like these a lot and think they make the game a lot more exciting and fair.

Second, and very important (updated May 3):


I've spent a lot of time trying to think of a way to fix this problem without changing skill cards, but I couldn't. I think the best solution is to weaken Investigative Committee and correspondingly strengthen Scientific Research. The problem I'm referring to is the imbalance in color strength. There are three parts: 1) Investigative Committee is really good, and yet it removes the coolest part of the game - playing cards secretly. That's a bad combination. 2) Partly because of this, Press Room is really good, and gets used to draw tons of Committees, which as mentioned make the game less fun. 3) All the characters that draw blue cards are underpowered, because the large blue card, Scientific Research, is really bad.

Anyway, we've tried a variety of other changes to address that, but I think this one's the best by quite a bit.

The next two changes are to Cylon cards that are by far better than their peers. The changes make them still often be the best, but not by as much. I've seen the Cylon who damages Galactica win the game basically on his own too many times. Massive Assault is less universally amazing but it's pretty insane in three-player, at least. This makes it a bit less brutal when you're practically guaranteed to be able to play it for its full value.

We don't play with the Sympathizer. I basically think it's a really bad mechanic, but there are plenty of other threads discussing this so I won't bother. I think our replacement is pretty well-balanced.

I added additional balance tweaks for different numbers of players. The way Fantasy Flight apparently tried to balance it is that number of humans minus number of cylons equals one. However, this makes no sense at all based on the actual game mechanics. A much more useful measurement is the ratio of cylons to players: 33%, 25%, 40%, 33%. The other differences by player number in this variant account for that.

On to the new characters!


Not much to say about the characters. I'm really happy with how Athena works though. I played a quick solo test run-through after designing the extra characters. Athena was the Cylon. The character after her Executive Ordered her to get out of Sickbay, at a time when it was important for her to launch in a Viper and play Maximum Firepower. Instead, she went to an unguarded FTL control and maneuvered all the Cylon ships, including two basestars, three heavy raiders, and a ton of raiders, quite beautifully. The next player brigged her but when she revealed on her turn, she got an extra action since it was a four-player game. She drew and played the perfect follow-up, Fleet Mobilization! The wreckage was impressive and the humans actually lost after only one jump. Now I've learned my lesson: if you're going to Order her, you might as well move to FTL Control first, eh?


Really this time, I don't have much to say. I do think she has the best set of skill cards in the game.


Yeah, I know he doesn't show up until season three, but he's an awesome character so I think it cancels out. I initially worried his first ability might be too good, but so far it seems quite reasonable.


Despite having played three games with Gaeta, I still have no idea how good he is. People keep misusing his die roll ability (e.g. when people don't have enough cards to beat the check...) with hilarious results. As the only character other than Boomer who draws no green, it's a pretty big improvement for him that he draws yellow.

OK, That was the fun part. Now comes the important part: little pieces of paper you print out and tape over certain characters' abilities (*cough* Roslin *cough*) to make them more balanced or interesting or unique or what have you. I'm just going to paste in the text - you'll have to figure out which abilities are being replaced (it's pretty obvious - either the first ability or the drawback):

[Roslin]
Religious Visions – After drawing a Crisis card, you may discard two cards to draw the top two cards of the Destiny deck.
Terminal Illness – When you discard, discard at random.


[Tigh]
XO – Action: Play an “Executive Order” card to activate two Galactica locations except the Research Lab or the Brig. You must be in one of them.


[Apollo]
Principled – When making a choice on a Crisis, you must choose the second option unless one of the options is a skill check.


[Starbuck]
Restless – If you start your turn in a location free of Cylon ships, and you are still there after your Action Step, discard a card.


[Boomer]
Sleeper Agent – You may not look at your own loyalty cards until the fleet has jumped twice and advanced twice.


So, a summary: Roslin is a lot weaker. She needed to be the weakest politician because she's first in line for president. Just like Adama needs to be the weakest military leader. Speaking of which, Tigh's a bit better. The ability is very nice, though probably less so than you think since you're playing an Executive Order card to use it. Apollo and Starbuck just changed because I hijacked their drawbacks for Roslin and Athena. However, I'll comment that I find it amusing that you might want to elect Apollo President because he'll never screw you on Food and Water shortages.

Boomer's change is a big one. She was previously a horrible character to be, what with being sent to the brig at the same time she gets another loyalty card. Strong, yes, but not a good pick to win. This change, I think, causes some quite interesting situations and mimics the show pretty well. Baltar can look at her cards before she can, and tell her she's not a Cylon! (You know you want to do that.) Unfortunately, no one has chosen the new Boomer yet so I don't know how she'll play out.

The exact abilities are still in flux after only three games with most of them, but I think this little expansion is ready to use. I've enjoyed my games with it so far quite a bit.

I'm happy to get feedback and suggestions, though if you think you can tell the balance better than me without playing any games first, you're probably wrong. Have fun!

Edit: As the file is rather large for BGG, I am hosting it here instead: http://bsg.s3m7.com/valley
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Cameron McKenzie
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Committee and Research changes seem pretty smart.

I like the change to the victory conditions as it always did kind of bug me that you could automatically have an easier game just because no cylon cards were dealt out until the sleeper phase.

One question though.. how can you know how many cylon cards were dealt out at the start without revealing who they are? Obviously the cylons can tell you whether they got their card at the beginning once distance 7 is reached, but they may not be revealed yet.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Yup, there's an annoying case with the loyalty/distance thing where further rules are required. If you reach 9 distance, you know you've won; if you reach 8, any single initial Cylon can tell you you've won; but if you reach 7 in a 5-6 player game, and you don't know for sure someone was a Cylon early, there's sometimes a problem.

The solution that always works is that when you reach 7 distance, everyone gets a white and a black token, and secretly puts one in the "I was an initial Cylon if this token is black" bag and the other in the other bag. Then reveal the contents of the bag.

In practice, this has never been necessary.
 
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A side effect of this is that the sleeper phase ALWAYS occurs after a guarenteed number of crises cards (as it will happen in the second run).

That removes some of the uncertainty and control that the admiral has over when the sleepers awaken.

I see you don't like the sympathizer mechanic either, but I find that to be a very nice game balancer for 6 provided the humans actually understand what the mechanic is trying to make them do.
 
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Seiya V
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Looks like you did a lot of work! I especially like the new characters and hope that when FFG makes an Expansion, they are of the same quality thematically.

Unfortunately, I completely disagree with some of the changes you've made to the game. (especially Boomer's new downside). Still, good effort! I enjoy seeing high quality unofficial expansions.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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I find your suggestions very interesting, but take issue with some of them being called "Errata". That implies official admission of a mistake, when in fact you are merely suggesting changes. You may want to try a different word.
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Sean McCarthy
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sdiberar wrote:
I find your suggestions very interesting, but take issue with some of them being called "Errata". That implies official admission of a mistake, when in fact you are merely suggesting changes. You may want to try a different word.


Unfortunately I don't know any other words that refer to a list of changes to other text. Any ideas?
 
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Tom Thingamagummy
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SevenSpirits wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
I find your suggestions very interesting, but take issue with some of them being called "Errata". That implies official admission of a mistake, when in fact you are merely suggesting changes. You may want to try a different word.


Unfortunately I don't know any other words that refer to a list of changes to other text. Any ideas?


"VoD Variant"

or something to that affect.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Unfortunately I don't know any other words that refer to a list of changes to other text. Any ideas?

"Changes"?
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Stephen Michael Hickey
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Enhancements?
 
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Sean McCarthy
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"Errata" specifically refers to a list of changes that you're supposed to apply to other text, and the reason is generally that it would be too hard to edit in the changes directly due to the already-existing physical nature of the original. Honestly, I think that describes the changes on the "Errata" card perfectly. In the book publishing world it's generally used to correct mistakes but Magic generalized the term to mean any kind of remote edit in a game context.
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Okay, Here's my breakdown. I focused primarily on your new characters, and the changes to the original characters. (Yes, it's long.)

SevenSpirits wrote:
I've spent a lot of time trying to think of a way to fix this problem without changing skill cards, but I couldn't. I think the best solution is to weaken Investigative Committee and correspondingly strengthen Scientific Research. The problem I'm referring to is the imbalance in color strength. There are three parts: 1) Investigative Committee is really good, and yet it removes the coolest part of the game - playing cards secretly. That's a bad combination. 2) Partly because of this, Press Room is really good, and gets used to draw tons of Committees, which as mentioned make the game less fun. 3) All the characters that draw blue cards are underpowered, because the large blue card, Scientific Research, is really bad.

-Yes, I agree, and have thought for a while now that Destiny shouldn't be revealed with Investigative Committee, but I haven't wanted to implement that change in my games, because it's been hard enough on humans already - So your proposal to make Scientific Research is very interesting to me, and initially very appealing. Unfortunately this would also having the effect of creating many situations in which unrevealed cylons could not play against skill checks without their sabotage being obvious, for obvious reasons in checks affected by IC, and in checks affected by SR any negative cards tossed up by the Destiny Deck will be known, so if any more show up, sabotage is quite obvious. In your play testing, has this come up as an issue? Have you been an unrevealed cylon and felt less able to sabotage discreetly? How has your group worked around this, or has it not been a problem?

-The changes to the Doral's Cylon cards seem fair and overdue.

-Axing the sympathizer is not a bad idea at all, At least until something better comes along. I like removing the Auto-Brig during Sleeper from Boomer, but I do not like that she only ends up with Two Loyalty cards now, I suppose that the component limitations had to be worked around one way or the other, though (the number of You are not a Cylon cards, in this case).

-Regarding Athena, specifically her Once Per Game (OPG);
Why FTL, and not Command? FTL is often unmanned (No reason to go there unless you need it, no reason to stay there after the job is done), so keeping someone there to keep her on her best behavior sacrifices actions. I can see why you chose FTL from a "Using her OPG to benefit the Humans" perspective, by not making it Command you allow other Human players to move Civvies and Vipers, and not worry about being in Athena's way when she works her magic. I'd be interested to see how it plays with the location changed to Command. I do like this OPG a lot, because it's so clearly useful either way, and requires the trust (deserved, or not) of your fellow players.

Regarding Dee;
I think she's fine, I was a little worried about her skill draw at first, but the fact that she only gets 1 of either Politics or Engineering helps to assuage my concerns. I'd like to see how this character plays though, and so far your characters are high in the running for which set of additional characters I'll end up printing.

Regarding Romo;
At first his "Everyturn" ability worried me, but then I realized it said "The top card from the political deck" and not "The top three cards..." laugh Anyway, yes, He seems interesting. The more I think about his powers, the more complicated and nuanced I see they are, and this is very fitting to his character for instance; at First I felt like his Everyturn power was far more useful to an unrevealed Cylon than to a Human, because Yellow only counts positive in 33% of the regular Crisis Cards, but then I remembered that a concealed cylon must play human, and therefor would have to use this to help the humans whenever possible in order not to appear suspicious - as it costs him nothing to do so, there is no reason for him not to. His OPG is also tricky, as far as I can tell, it seems like it might be hard to use it to good effect as an unrevealed Cylon, How has it been used in your games? Have you had a Cylon Romo Yet?

Regarding Gaeta:
Now here is a Power that I like. Clear uses for Humans and Cylons alike! a Human player can use it at critical moments to remove (or mitigate) luck in a decision, while a Cylon can claim abuse it, finding reasons to invoke it, and hotly defend the rightness of them, all in the end of causing more skill checks, and more lost cards. Interesting combination of game mechanics. Innovative.

Moving onto your changes for older characters...

Roslin;
Her new Everyturn is interesting, it has the effect of turning her into a Great character for card counters to choose, because they will *Know* where 2-4 of the cards from the Destiny Deck went in every Shuffle, armed with this information, they can defend themselves from accusation, and accuse others with somewhat more "authority" (supposing they can convince the other players of this, as usual). Her drawback being toned down is much appreciated as she was a character I'd never play due to it (what can I say, I like activating locations and having cards in my hand.)

Tigh:
Ah now you see, I was a big fan of Cylon Hatred, but this is nice too. Question; Can you use this to Activate the Admirals Quarters (or any location for that matter) twice? If Yes, then this is more powerful than Cylon Hatred, because it means the Accused will need to survive two Checks in order to not be brigged! I also like giving EOs another use in the game. Nice work.

Apollo:
Nice patter observation to pick up that the second option is always one that hurts the current player. Good drawback. And Yes, I fully support Mr. Adama's bid for presidency.

Starbuck:
Her new drawback seems doesn't seem that harsh, maybe I'm missing something. Why would she ever end her turn in a area free of Cylon ships when she could jump onto galactica and take two shots at them with Weapons Control? The only reason I can think of would be if she were the only viper in space protecting Civvies that were in danger of being attacked from both sides (If Raiderswere only approaching from one side, she could advance on them, attack, and tie them up that way).

Boomer:
I like this a lot, but it doesn't have the teeth that the old version did. (Original) Boomer is still a very powerful character even with her drawback, and not because of her three loyalty cards, but more because of her Everyturn ability, which is essentially a free scout on the Crisis Deck. I haven't played your new Boomer yet, but my gut tells me this drawback needs something more, something that will linger after the first two jumps+two advancements (I interpret this to mean, that Boomer can't look at her Loyalty cards, until the fleet reaches the Second Red space on the jump track, after the second jump, is this correct?

Quote:
I'm happy to get feedback and suggestions, though if you think you can tell the balance better than me without playing any games first, you're probably wrong. Have fun!

We wouldn't dare presume to do such a thing, but then, you can't put this up and not expect us to speculate as to how it might affect the game, and balance, now can you?

All in all, Great work, Good ideas, and I look forward to trying out your ideas. Keep it up!
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Sean McCarthy
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Great feedback - thanks!

YearoftheCat wrote:
-Yes, I agree, and have thought for a while now that Destiny shouldn't be revealed with Investigative Committee, but I haven't wanted to implement that change in my games, because it's been hard enough on humans already - So your proposal to make Scientific Research is very interesting to me, and initially very appealing. Unfortunately this would also having the effect of creating many situations in which unrevealed cylons could not play against skill checks without their sabotage being obvious, for obvious reasons in checks affected by IC, and in checks affected by SR any negative cards tossed up by the Destiny Deck will be known, so if any more show up, sabotage is quite obvious. In your play testing, has this come up as an issue? Have you been an unrevealed cylon and felt less able to sabotage discreetly? How has your group worked around this, or has it not been a problem?

That's a great point. In the games I played with these changes, ICs were played significantly less and SRs only somewhat more. SR revealing the destiny deck also has a much smaller effect - if you're relying completely on the destiny cards to hide you it's very risky anyway. The more significant thing with SR is the way it encourages fewer players to play into the check. For example, if only one person plays cards to it they can beat it exactly. That's kind of too bad - it makes it quite a bit harder to sabotage! Overall the Investigative Committee effect of revealing skill check cards always hurts the gameplay, but I think it's a lot less frequent with my changes.

Quote:
I like removing the Auto-Brig during Sleeper from Boomer, but I do not like that she only ends up with Two Loyalty cards now, I suppose that the component limitations had to be worked around one way or the other, though (the number of You are not a Cylon cards, in this case).

Nah, I don't mind the components as it's not too hard to pretend the sympathizer card is a "not a cylon" card. Actually the one thing I was least certain about is whether Boomer should get a third loyalty card in the sleeper phase or not. I leaned toward simplicity but it may work better to have her be a more likely cylon, to balance her incentives correctly. Like I said, I haven't played a game with her yet and it's hard to tell in advance how detrimentally people will play her.

Quote:
-Regarding Athena, specifically her Once Per Game (OPG);
Why FTL, and not Command? FTL is often unmanned (No reason to go there unless you need it, no reason to stay there after the job is done), so keeping someone there to keep her on her best behavior sacrifices actions.

Basically I wanted a location that is marginally useful to stay in but it often empty. Command doesn't fit that - it could reasonably stay occupied for many turns in a row. If you're playing a 5-player game and there are cylon ships out, someone will be there. Same with Communications. I prefer that there's some amount of intentional effort required to prevent her from doing it. It's not a huge burden though; you can XO people, Consolidate Power, or Scout, and people can XO you to Scout + jump the fleet.

Quote:
Regarding Romo;
At first his "Everyturn" ability worried me, but then I realized it said "The top card from the political deck" and not "The top three cards..." laugh Anyway, yes, He seems interesting. The more I think about his powers, the more complicated and nuanced I see they are, and this is very fitting to his character

I like that he can help people get out of the brig on his turn.

Quote:
His OPG is also tricky, as far as I can tell, it seems like it might be hard to use it to good effect as an unrevealed Cylon, How has it been used in your games? Have you had a Cylon Romo Yet?

Hm, good point. Actually it has yet to be used by anyone. One possible use is all but guaranteeing you'll get out of the brig or become president. Another is causing something like Forced Water Mining to be practically unbeatable once someone's chosen the skill check.

Quote:
Tigh:
Ah now you see, I was a big fan of Cylon Hatred, but this is nice too. Question; Can you use this to Activate the Admirals Quarters (or any location for that matter) twice?

No, it activates two different locations.

Quote:
Starbuck:
Her new drawback seems doesn't seem that harsh, maybe I'm missing something. Why would she ever end her turn in a area free of Cylon ships when she could jump onto galactica and take two shots at them with Weapons Control?

There are a couple cases where it applies. 1) She's in the brig. 2) She's on a strong space like press room or communications and wants to stay there. 3) She's in space, guarding some civvies, and wants to stay there.

Quote:
I haven't played your new Boomer yet, but my gut tells me this drawback needs something more, something that will linger after the first two jumps+two advancements (I interpret this to mean, that Boomer can't look at her Loyalty cards, until the fleet reaches the Second Red space on the jump track, after the second jump, is this correct?

Yeah, that's correct and you might be right. On the other hand, you might be underestimating the drawback of not knowing which team you're on though. That automatically implies that your team is down some fraction of a person for half the game, as your incentives are even more unclear than the other players'.

Quote:
We wouldn't dare presume to do such a thing, but then, you can't put this up and not expect us to speculate as to how it might affect the game, and balance, now can you?


Yeah, that's fine. Thanks for your post!
 
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Sean P
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I think you did a great job on these and I hope the upcoming FFG expansion will have these characters included. As well as more of the rebel cylons.

As an idea for Athena, one of her abilities could be like the one she used once on the show where she "virused" the attacking Cylon fleet while the Galacticans blew them away. Maybe an ability that wipes all non basestar Cylons off the board. Just a thought.

Congrats on the good work.
 
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Quote:
I see you don't like the sympathizer mechanic either, but I find that to be a very nice game balancer for 6 provided the humans actually understand what the mechanic is trying to make them do.


Just to be sure, explain what you think the mechanic is trying to make them do.

Thanks
 
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Sean McCarthy
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I gave up on uploading the file to BGG since it's a bit large. Instead I've put it here: http://bsg.s3m7.com/

Please let me know how it goes if you try to print it out.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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My group has been grousing that the cylons already win. I'm sure we're not playing this game on the level that you are; but therin lies an opportunity. I'll begin lobbying to try this out next time, and lets see how our players develop. Should be interesting...

 
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Dave J McWeasely
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Sharon & Gaius
Y'know, Sharon's new not-knowing-what-she-is thing is awesome, its a really great innovation for this sort of game. I look forward to somehow adapting this to Werewolf.

Thematically though, wouldn't this make more sense for Gaius Baltar? From the bits of the show I've seen, he's the one that is in the most suspense about his race.
 
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Tom Thingamagummy
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MrWeasely wrote:
My group has been grousing that the cylons already win. I'm sure we're not playing this game on the level that you are; but therin lies an opportunity. I'll begin lobbying to try this out next time, and lets see how our players develop. Should be interesting...



I know how you feel... in the 20 or so games I've played, the Humans have only won twice. Both wins were against new players in games with only 1 Cylon. I've been a Cylon in 17 of them, so I just don't know the Human's struggles yet. But now I'm starting to be a Human more, thank goodness, so I can actually try to win!
 
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Sean McCarthy
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MrWeasely wrote:
Y'know, Sharon's new not-knowing-what-she-is thing is awesome, its a really great innovation for this sort of game. I look forward to somehow adapting this to Werewolf.

Thematically though, wouldn't this make more sense for Gaius Baltar? From the bits of the show I've seen, he's the one that is in the most suspense about his race.


That's an interesting way of thinking about it. Yeah, it would kind of fit him too. Though really his motivations are just selfish.

Now I'm interested in having him have a similar drawback to Boomer's, but have it tied in with his Cylon Detectoring somehow. Like, make it an ability that can happen multiple times (but restricted somehow), and shows him a random card of any player including himself.

I think it might be hard to get right though. Maybe instead just try to replace his Delusional Intuition ability with something that lets him be more selfish.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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SevenSpirits wrote:
MrWeasely wrote:
Y'know, Sharon's new not-knowing-what-she-is thing is awesome, its a really great innovation for this sort of game. I look forward to somehow adapting this to Werewolf.

Thematically though, wouldn't this make more sense for Gaius Baltar? From the bits of the show I've seen, he's the one that is in the most suspense about his race.


That's an interesting way of thinking about it. Yeah, it would kind of fit him too. Though really his motivations are just selfish.

Now I'm interested in having him have a similar drawback to Boomer's, but have it tied in with his Cylon Detectoring somehow. Like, make it an ability that can happen multiple times (but restricted somehow), and shows him a random card of any player including himself.

I think it might be hard to get right though. Maybe instead just try to replace his Delusional Intuition ability with something that lets him be more selfish.


I would change his negative ability entirely if you want to make him more "selfish."

It would probably be best to give him some kind of ability that makes it more difficult to win as a human, and requires him to achieve some specific goal for himself, that forces him to be selfish in some way to the detriment of the human team. The condition should not be exclusive of a human team win. He still is on that team, he just has to go above and beyond to share in the victory, which will force him to pursue his own agenda in addition to the human agena.

He's more likely to get brigged because he's playing selfishly, whether he's a cylon or not (if he's hurting the team, the others should put him there even if they believe he is a human) so it makes for a pretty decent negative. Of course, the conditions do not apply if he is in fact a cylon, but it may give him an "excuse" to make poor decisions without immediately gaining suspicion =)

As for what the goal should be, I'm not too sure. Requiring a number of skill cards is not very interesting. Merely requiring him to be president is too easy (the other players are probably happy to let him have it if he's shown that he's trustworthy).

Perhaps it should be that Baltar can only win if the President (regardless of who) is holding at least 3 (maybe 2?) quorum cards at the end of the game. This encourages Baltar to pursue the presidency, which the other players will be hesitant to grant him as he will be "hoarding" quorum cards instead of using them. If he can't gain the presidency, he may still be able to convince the president to save cards through diplomacy ("I won't help with the next check if you play a quorum card"). This isn't very thematic, but it's still giving Baltar a reason to negotiate with the other humans which I think should be appropriate.
 
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Tom Thingamagummy
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Quick question while I'm thinking about it:

When Roslin discards two cards to draw the top to from the destiny deck, does she draw them into their hard or are they just discarded?

I assume the intent is to make her be able to predict destiny a bit better, but it doesn't say if she gets to keep those two cards.

Another way of asking: Is Roslin discarding two known cards for two unknown cards from the destiny deck? Or is Roslyn just sacrificing two cards to reveal what the destiny cards will be in the challenge (like an Investigative Committee or Scientific Research in this case).
 
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arkibet wrote:
Quick question while I'm thinking about it:

When Roslin discards two cards to draw the top to from the destiny deck, does she draw them into their hard or are they just discarded?


Yes. To be perfectly clear, she takes the top two cards from the destiny deck and secretly adds them to her hand.

This happens before any part of the crisis is resolved, and is independent of whether it even involves a skill check. It only depends on whether she chooses to use it. Also, keep in mind she's discarding at random.
 
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MasterDinadan wrote:
I would change his negative ability entirely if you want to make him more "selfish."

It would probably be best to give him some kind of ability that makes it more difficult to win as a human, and requires him to achieve some specific goal for himself, that forces him to be selfish in some way to the detriment of the human team. The condition should not be exclusive of a human team win. He still is on that team, he just has to go above and beyond to share in the victory, which will force him to pursue his own agenda in addition to the human agena.


Good idea. Of course, he'd then have to have abilities that were actually decent. Right now his drawback is his best ability, assuming Cylons win more than humans.

Quote:
Perhaps it should be that Baltar can only win if the President (regardless of who) is holding at least 3 (maybe 2?) quorum cards at the end of the game.


This particular idea wouldn't work. It's very game-dependent but the president frequently ends up with 8+ card hands in our games.
 
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SevenSpirits wrote:
arkibet wrote:
Quick question while I'm thinking about it:

When Roslin discards two cards to draw the top to from the destiny deck, does she draw them into their hard or are they just discarded?


Yes. To be perfectly clear, she takes the top two cards from the destiny deck and secretly adds them to her hand.

This happens before any part of the crisis is resolved, and is independent of whether it even involves a skill check. It only depends on whether she chooses to use it. Also, keep in mind she's discarding at random.


Same as the way Apollo works? i.e. She can choose when discarding to change ships, but hand limit and crisis cards that force her to discard she does randomly?

How much leeway do you give her in talking about what she draws. Can she say what colors she drew, or is that revealing too much about the cards she has?
 
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