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Subject: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion - Offical results posted. rss

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Max Jamelli
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
thanks for running this. I missed out on submitting my want list due to a last minute trip -- was very bummed to see there was interest in some of my submissions. Hopefully they trade this time around.
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Just a quick note...

I've noticed that asgelb has decided to list a few items on this math trade, but after much consideration, I've decided that I will be pulling his items. He has been made aware of this decision.

In the last math trade he participated, a few people (including myself), had to file a complaint with Octavian before he finally shipped our items. While Aaron eventually came through, it left a bad taste in a lot of mouths - not just mine.

It's up to the other moderators as to how they want to handle asgelb in their math trades, but for at least this one, I will be leaving him out. I hope everyone understands.

And yes, I am aware of the irony when you consider that the name of this Math Trade is the 'Second Chance' Math Trade.

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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
aksosa wrote:
I've noticed that asgelb has decided to list a few items on this math trade, but after much consideration, I've decided that I will be pulling his items. He has been made aware of this decision.
curious if he's officially on the bad traders list?

looking at his feedback ... http://www.boardgamegeek.com/trade/feedback/119844 ... in addition to the 3 negative feedbacks about months delay shipping, I see at least 3 neutral ratings that indicate the same thing
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
I was a part of that, and I haven't even left feedback yet. I just haven't decided on negative or neutral yet. I'm likely to go neutral as he did at least get me the item eventually (although the condition description could have been better).

A tough decision for Albert to have to make, and the right one under the circumstances I think...
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
anglotiger wrote:

A tough decision for Albert to have to make, and the right one under the circumstances I think...
Agreed.

What a shame, though. Apparently I had traded with him in the past (as had many) and it worked out fine. I wonder what the drastic change was.

I guess the moral of the story is, if life hits you hard as your supposed to be shipping and your going to see a delay, at least keep communicating what's going on. There's nothing more frustrating than being kept in the dark.
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Jack K
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Well said Kurt. Most of us are very reasonable folks. If you need extra time due to a life crisis, just send a quick note asking for that time - you don't have to give details if you don't want to - and most of us will understand. Silence isn't golden, and nor is telling someone you've shipped when you haven't (which might happen to some people)...
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
This is my first math trade, so be gentle.

I added #631 - command and colors ancients. However its not showing up in the bgg.activityclub automated tool.

http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/viewlist.cgi?listid=42326&...

As of 12:51pm EST, this is only going up to 630.

Does this update on a cycle (every two hours or so, etc?)

(Edit:Spelling... i before e, etc.. etc..)
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
irishman wrote:
This is my first math trade, so be gentle.

I added #631 - command and colors ancients. However its not showing up in the bgg.activityclub automated tool.

http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/viewlist.cgi?listid=42326&...

As of 12:51pm EST, this is only going up to 630.

Does this update on a cycle (every two hours or so, etc?)

(Edit:Spelling... i before e, etc.. etc..)
The updates are done manually by the trade moderator. Sounds like Albert might have pushed the updates to OLWLG just before you submitted. It will show up at the next update.

Welcome to math trading!
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Jeff Michaud
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
irishman wrote:
I added #631 - command and colors ancients. However its not showing up in the bgg.activityclub automated tool.
in the OLWLG click on the "help" link then look under the "Frequently Asked Questions" I would recommend as a 1st time user of the OLWLG that you (and anyone else relatively new to the OLWLG) skim the whole wiki page
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Reading away!

So far, the only thing I can find in that link is:

Step 1: Steal Underpants
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit!

Can someone explain step 2 to me?
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
JeffyJeff wrote:
irishman wrote:
I added #631 - command and colors ancients. However its not showing up in the bgg.activityclub automated tool.
in the OLWLG click on the "help" link then look under the "Frequently Asked Questions" I would recommend as a 1st time user of the OLWLG that you (and anyone else relatively new to the OLWLG) skim the whole wiki page
It's also not bad to check again. It seems that every time I come back there's a new feature (or an overlooked one) since the last time I traded.

And welcome to the wonderful world of Math Trading, Doug. Many times I've found it as much fun (and in some cases more) as the games I'm trading for.

A couple quick things:
1. Communicate with everyone you're trading with. Some people take up to a week after the trade is over, but I generally prefer getting a hold of the senders and receivers I'm involved with within a day of the trade ending. But above all, let those involved know what's going on, especially if it's bad news (like delayed shipping).

2. Be very honest with what you're putting up. Even if it means you don't make a trade. If you make a dishonest trade, there's a chance won't be allowed back.

3.Don't be afraid to ask questions (although reading the FAQ on the OLWLG first is a great place to start). Everyone wants the trades to go well, and are very helpful, even when asking what seems like stupid questions (I've asked plenty).

4. Make sure the game you're trading is listed "For Trade". It's easy to forget, and can be frustrating for the person who wins your trade as you can't propose a trade on a game that's not listed.

5. Update your wants. The OLWLG does some really awesome work with helping you find your wants in large lists.

6. Don't forget to list what you're covering in shipping. Most people cover all shipping, but you need to cover at least $5 to the same country you live in (for this particular trade). If you don't specify, you may end up shipping around the world when you weren't planning on it (it is an option if you want though).

There's plenty more, but that should get you started. Have fun!
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Ok, so I think I have this taken care of. I have myself in the system. I have my game listed, I have my wants selected, and checkboxed against my game. I think im good to go.

Now my question is this. There are some games I *REALLY* want, and some games that would be.. meh... ok to have.

Should I take the MEH games off the list? Is it pretty understood that i will be sending my game off and getting *something* out of this math trade?

Doug
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
irishman wrote:
Ok, so I think I have this taken care of. I have myself in the system. I have my game listed, I have my wants selected, and checkboxed against my game. I think im good to go.

Now my question is this. There are some games I *REALLY* want, and some games that would be.. meh... ok to have.

Should I take the MEH games off the list? Is it pretty understood that i will be sending my game off and getting *something* out of this math trade?

Doug
Speaking from personal experience, I've put "MEH' games on my wantlists before and while there have been times when I've been pleasantly surprised by game I was only mildly curious about, but more often than not, it lead to traders remorse.

Unless you like taking chances, I would recommend only putting items on your wantlists that you would absolutely be delighted to receive.

If you miss out on an item you really wanted in this math trade, there is always the next one.




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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Doug, never - ever - put something on a math trade want list that you wouldn't be happy to receive in return for the particular item you're offering.

Remember that there's always another math trade around the corner, so don't feel like you need to take something you don't really want just to make a trade.
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
irishman wrote:
Now my question is this. There are some games I *REALLY* want, and some games that would be.. meh... ok to have.

Should I take the MEH games off the list? Is it pretty understood that i will be sending my game off and getting *something* out of this math trade?
The way I read your question, it seems to me that you expect to get something from the entire list, something that is already on your want or wish lists in your BGG profile.

That's not how this works. (I could be wrong and being pedantic, ignore me if this is the case).

You will decide which of the games submitted by others interest you. The way to do this is to create a "want list" (which is not the games wanted list from the profile).

To create a want list in the OLWLG, click on the "Add" button that appears to the left of the games that interest you. These are the only games that you have a chance of getting from the trade. If you don't want to add you meh games to this, that's great.

In the next step (step 4), you will specify which games from others you are willing to trade for each game from you.


I knew I was missing something... i only read the lower part of your post.

just do what everyone else said
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
anglotiger wrote:
Doug, never - ever - put something on a math trade want list that you wouldn't be happy to receive in return for the particular item you're offering.

Remember that there's always another math trade around the corner, so don't feel like you need to take something you don't really want just to make a trade.
Great advice. As a first time trader I was extremely tempted to load up my list just to make trades. While I haven't traded away anything that I miss, I have received games that I was less than interested in receiving. I've become much more honest with myself in recent trades.

At the risk of sounding a little fruity, the key element to a successful math trade is honesty. Both with those you would trade with and yourself as to what you'd be willing to trade.
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion

Thanks guys. There are about 5 items that I would really be pleased if I get. (as of the list now, which as 700 items on it... WOW!) Since I am only trading one game away, thats probably a decent set of chances I may end up with one of those five. Other than that, we will just ride this and see what happens. Its been a very interesting experience so far. Thanks to everyone for the advice.
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
irishman wrote:
Is it pretty understood that i will be sending my game off and getting *something* out of this math trade?

Doug
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that historically only about 20% of games trade. So, I wouldn't count on trading your games. Good luck!
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Warning! I see some items being offered where they indicate they will only cover the first X amount of the shipping... but fail to follow the rules to indicate where they are shipping from....

At least one of these is offering the edition of a game that comes in a LARGE box and will likely also require International shipping... I hate to see someone to end up with one of thse items and being happy until they find out they have to pay the sender $10-20 to cover the excess shipping not covered.
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Quote:

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that historically only about 20% of games trade. So, I wouldn't count on trading your games. Good luck!

So here is the question:

Say I have Game "A", and want games "Y" or "Z".. and for some crazy reason, both the owners of "Y" and "Z" both want my game. How do you figure out which one you trade with? How / where do I set my priorities? Is it at list submission time?

 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
irishman wrote:
Say I have Game "A", and want games "Y" and "Z".. and for some crazy reason, both the owners of "Y" and "Z" both want my game. How do you figure out which one you trade with? How / where do I set my priorities? Is it at list submission time?
just to avoid confusion you should say your item's want lists wants "Y" ***or*** "Z"... sometimes newbies get confused and think they can specify that their item will trade only for a conbination of other items.

Also all newbies if they haven't already should read:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Math_Trades

and for more details on the tool that will be used that actually resolves (finds) trades see

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/TradeMaximizer
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
jwoodall04 wrote:
Correction: You CAN organize values (this is difficult to read though, someone can explain it to us). :)
NOTE: This particular trade (and most math trades these days) will IGNORE values/priorities in favor of maximizing the number of USERS getting at least one trade.

This means you can also IGNORE this section on the wiki page about prioritized lists :

Quote:
What is "Maximize Trades?"

Most math trades have used the "maximize trades" algorithm to decide who trades with whom. This algorithm tries to come up with the most trades it can, considering each person's list of wanted trades. When more than one set of trades gives the most total trades, the algorithm favors trades which give people games higher in their priority lists.
I suggest that it would be extremely helpful to newbies to express in plain English in the boilerplate rules/info section on page 1 of the trade list that this trade will IGNORE wantlist priorities.

Expecting everybody -- and especially newbies! -- to understand that this is implied by the cryptic phrase "METRIC=USERS-TRADING" is setting the bar extremely high.
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
irishman wrote:
Thanks guys. There are about 5 items that I would really be pleased if I get. (as of the list now, which as 700 items on it... WOW!) Since I am only trading one game away, thats probably a decent set of chances I may end up with one of those five.
You've got a good quality item out there, that definitely helps. I just want to make sure that you understand the full equation - it really depends upon what you want. Whether or not you have a decent chance is also related to what five items you've targeted. Because you've limited yourself to five items, likely all expensive and/or OOP and/or hard to find ones (that's an assumption), you've reduced the chances overall that you will make a trade. The owners you want have to find items they're willing to take in return for the item you want. And the owners of those items have to have items they're willing to take, and so on. A few blank want lists can have a ripple effect across the pond, and the most highly desired items often have blank want lists.

That being said, if there are really only five items you'd be happy to take for yours, it's still the right thing to do - either you'll get really lucky or you won't make a trade, and in the latter case you've not lost anything and can try again next time.
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priorities provide a false sense of security... Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
kinbote wrote:
I suggest that it would be extremely helpful to newbies to express in plain English in the boilerplate rules/info section on page 1 of the trade list that this trade will IGNORE wantlist priorities
I would also suggest that any math trade that uses priorities to make clear that priorities give folks a FALSE sense of SECURITY... priorities are only used as tie breakers between two or more want lists with the tie breaker going to the person who listed the item earlier on their want lists.

I like the determinism priorities give, but priorities will in general NOT make it more likely that you will get your higher wants over your lower wants... in fact just the opposite... because remember the #1 goal of the trade resolver is to find the MAX number of items trading as possible... if it has to take folks lowest valued wants to do so that's what it will do... and is likely that's exactly what it will do as that's what will maximize the number of trades.

If we could I wish we could replace the term "priorities" with something else... may simply "TieBreaker"? (but even that may be misleading)
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
JeffyJeff wrote:
If we could I wish we could replace the term "priorities" with something else... may simply "TieBreaker"? (but even that may be misleading)
You should talk to the creator of the OLWLG about that . . . cool

I realize that you're talking about the TradeMaximizer variable, but OLWLG is how most users interact with the idea of priorities/tiebreakers. I'm not even sure that priorities matter in trades that use priorities (based on the large numbers of different result sets generated using multiple iterations. If it truly used priorities, it seems like it should come up with the same deterministic result set after each iteration.).

Even when priorities are not used, I use them (the relative ranking in Step 4) to sort my wants so I make fewer mistakes, especially when dealing with a large number of wants and submissions.
 
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