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Subject: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion - Offical results posted. rss

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Jeff Michaud
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Ryan, I specifically don't use the term "priorities" in the OLWLG... I specifically support "values" to "order you wants" (overriding the default ordering the OLWLG already does) and defer to the trade resolver how or how not the order of your wants are taken into account. See http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/OLWLG#toc14

The reason that even with priorities you get different results when using ITERATIONS (w/default metric of "sum of squares (of the chain sizes)") and either a different number of ITERATIONS and/or a different SEED is because there are still a large number of possible result sets that both meet the #1 goal of maxing out the number of items trading, and #2 the lowest cost (ie. breaking some ties with "priorities").
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Ryan Gatti
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
JeffyJeff wrote:
The reason that even with priorities you get different results when using ITERATIONS (w/default metric of "sum of squares (of the chain sizes)") and either a different number of ITERATIONS and/or a different SEED is because there are still a large number of possible result sets that both meet the #1 goal of maxing out the number of items trading, and #2 the lowest cost (ie. breaking some ties with "priorities").
Right, and in that context, priorities do make a very small difference. However, maximizing the items traded has a much larger impact (orders of magnitude), and even finding smaller sum of squares results on subsequent iterations seems to dominate lowest cost results (since it isn't clear that the algorithm really calculates a total cost for the entire trade).

Priorities only apply when the algorithm has the option of using 2 virtually identical (trade chains) items, but given how nearly every item in the trade has a different set of wants and items wanting them, I don't really see too many cases where priority even has a chance of being applied.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Quote:
finding smaller sum of squares results on subsequent iterations seems to dominate lowest cost results
actually what you should find is that all results have *exactly* the same cost... and actually the way the algorithm works at maxing out the number of trades is all based on costs... the cost of an item *not* trading is higher than any other edge from/to the item. In a way you could consider maxing the trades just a side effect of minimizing the cost.

Quote:
Priorities only apply when the algorithm has the option of using 2 virtually identical (trade chains) items...
actually that is only one case... again because the algorithm is always finding the lowest cost and each ITERATION is starting fresh, it's just (possibly more) likely that it's not one item in place of another but completely different chains... if you use TradeMax 1.4 with VERBOSE option and default METRIC of sum of squares of chain sizes you'll see the chain sizes change on each iteration.

by the way, I'm not sure but I think if SCALED priorities are used it may be a little more deterministic as it's less likely two items in the same position will have the same priority (unless both want lists also has the exact same length).
 
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Chris Palmarozzi
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Just wanted to say thanks for putting this together.
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Albert
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
dhaeman wrote:
Just wanted to say thanks for putting this together.
You're welcome. Keep in mind that it's Jeff's OLWLG that deserves most of the credit. Without it, I don't know if I would have the time (or patience) to run one.

Speaking of which, I'm going to re-synch the OLWLG in a minute, but then I'll be offline for about 2-3 hours. Since it's my 'Friday', I'm going to have a nice dinner out.

I'll re-synch the OLWLG again as soon as I return.
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Ryan Gatti
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
JeffyJeff wrote:
Quote:
finding smaller sum of squares results on subsequent iterations seems to dominate lowest cost results
actually what you should find is that all results have *exactly* the same cost... and actually the way the algorithm works at maxing out the number of trades is all based on costs... the cost of an item *not* trading is higher than any other edge from/to the item. In a way you could consider maxing the trades just a side effect of minimizing the cost.
Okay, you're starting to confuse me. Either you're saying what I'm saying (more or less), or you're implying that any metric (including USERS-TRADING) fundamentally uses priorities when creating a result set.

Or maybe USERS-TRADING gets applied earlier than I thought (my understanding is that USERS-TRADING replaces the sum of squares comparison between iterations. So, a result set with more users involved becomes the current best result set.)

But in generating that result set, how does it avoid considering priorities? Or do the edge cost consist of a large number if the item trades plus an optional (but much smaller) priority value which is omitted in the USERS-TRADING metric? And, by extension, I assume that the added priority values are much smaller than the item trading value (so much so that the sum of all of the highest priorities is still smaller than the edge trading value, otherwise, you could conceivably have a result set with highest priority trades, but less than the maximum possible number of trades.).
 
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Jeff Michaud
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Users-Trading only replaces the then only and now default metric that ITERATIONS uses to decide to replace the current completed result set or not.

Edge costs are a function of the rank (position) and the priority scheme.

I think the confusion is you had said "2 virtually identical items" and what I said is that the algorithm is not looking at items and has no way of knowing if they are identical or even simliar and in fact the items can very well be completely different games. The end result is simply that it's always the lowest total cost.

We could move this to one of the TradeMax threads and then maybe Chris O. (Mr. TradeMax) can help as hopefully I'm not misrepresenting the algorithm
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Ted McManus
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Okay, I think my main point -- communicating to the users the futility of prioritizing wantlists -- has gotten lost in all the details here.

I suggest it would be helpful to all traders to declare in the boilerplate rules/instructions something like this:

While the Online Want List Generator allows you to assemble your wants in a particular order for your own organizing convenience, any such sequencing will have no practical effect on the outcome of your trades. Except for unbelievably rare tie-breaking instances, the position of an item in your want list is essentially meaningless.

Or maybe such text would be useful on the OLWLG page for Step 4, since that's where users see the ordering interface?
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
What is up with Feudal? Is there some kinda news that I missed on this title? It shows up every now and again in MT's, but we have 3-4 separate copies already in this MT?
 
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Jeff Michaud
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
RoamDog wrote:
What is up with Feudal? Is there some kinda news that I missed on this title? It shows up every now and again in MT's, but we have 3-4 separate copies already in this MT?
thrifters? it's a 42 year old game....
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
What is up with Feudal? Is there some kinda news that I missed on this title? It shows up every now and again in MT's, but we have 3-4 separate copies already in this MT?
thrifters? it's a 42 year old game....
That explains it. 42...
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Andrew Tullsen
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
anglotiger wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
What is up with Feudal? Is there some kinda news that I missed on this title? It shows up every now and again in MT's, but we have 3-4 separate copies already in this MT?
thrifters? it's a 42 year old game....
That explains it. 42...
 
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Jeff Michaud
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Interestingly so far I have no duplicates on my want lists (except for gift certs and geek gold)...

... however I guess those Tanga Z-Man Chinatown's orders haven't arrived yet? Has Tanga (or their partner) not shipped them out yet? And did everyone who bit only buy 1 copy and no extras for trading?
 
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Anson Wooten
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
I have a quick question.

I've participated in a couple of math trades, and I generally cover all shipping costs (It just seems easier). If I choose to only cover part of the shipping (say the first $10 for example), what is the normal\acceptable way to collect the balance of the shipping fee.

Do you send the game out with a reciept and expect the reciever to send a check for the difference?

Do you collect the difference before sending the game?

Whats the standard process for this?

Thanks
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
OSUnut wrote:
I have a quick question.

I've participated in a couple of math trades, and I generally cover all shipping costs (It just seems easier). If I choose to only cover part of the shipping (say the first $10 for example), what is the normal\acceptable way to collect the balance of the shipping fee.

Do you send the game out with a reciept and expect the reciever to send a check for the difference?

Do you collect the difference before sending the game?

Whats the standard process for this?

Thanks
Normally it's done via paypal before the sender ships.
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Jeff Michaud
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Anson... just don't do it... at least not within your own country... like you said it's just a HASSLE for all... just factor in shipping into what you put on your want lists. For outside the country that's a different story... and I think standard is paypal... and you'll usually want to collect before you ship.
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
OSUnut wrote:
I have a quick question.

I've participated in a couple of math trades, and I generally cover all shipping costs (It just seems easier). If I choose to only cover part of the shipping (say the first $10 for example), what is the normal\acceptable way to collect the balance of the shipping fee.

Do you send the game out with a reciept and expect the reciever to send a check for the difference?

Do you collect the difference before sending the game?

Whats the standard process for this?

Thanks
This is what I used last time...
I will ship anywhere on earth but will not ship to locations that are off earth. Shipping from USA zip 50325.
I will cover the full cost (not including insurance) to ship to the US.
I will cover the first $5.00 to ship to Canada.
I will cover the first $5.00 to ship to anywhere else. Insurance (at receiver's expense) will be required for any location other than US and Canada.
Payment (via Western Union wire, Amazon GC, or Paypal (but not a creditcard-funded Paypal payment) for any shipping charge due must be received prior to the item being shipped.
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
Is there a reason why the "Send your wantlist" button does not appear on the OLWLG?

My wantlist is ready but I can't send it....
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
richardtempura wrote:
Is there a reason why the "Send your wantlist" button does not appear on the OLWLG?

My wantlist is ready but I can't send it....
We are not yet in the "submission window" timeframe. See the header on the trade GeekList.
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
richardtempura wrote:
Is there a reason why the "Send your wantlist" button does not appear on the OLWLG?

My wantlist is ready but I can't send it....
Quote:
Open for posting games: Tuesday, May 5th until Thursday, May 7th (10pm)

Want list submission period: Thursday, May 7th (10pm) until Saturday, May 9th (10pm) - no extensions!
And give those late games a chance!
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
...

Read the time wrong. Thought it was 10 AM...... modest
 
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Andrew Tullsen
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
richardtempura wrote:
...

Read the time wrong. Thought it was 10 AM...... modest
I've done the same thing myself on occasion.
 
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Lo Ma
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
I'm unable to add any games to my want list in the OWLG - it just hangs when I ckick on the add button.

I've tried on two different Windows XP machines, one with IE7 and the other with IE8...

I even tried rebooting. I'm not having any trouble with any other sites.

Oh no!!!
 
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
LoMa wrote:
I'm unable to add any games to my want list in the OWLG - it just hangs when I ckick on the add button.

I've tried on two different Windows XP machines, one with IE7 and the other with IE8...

I even tried rebooting. I'm not having any trouble with any other sites.

Oh no!!!
Try cleaning your cache.

Then try Firefox/Opera/Google Chrome/Safari
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Re: Second Chance Math Trade Discussion
OK, I just re-synched the OLWLG.

I just got back from having 3 wisdom teeth pulled so I'll be in the rest of the night. I made the mistake of not eating before my appointment and and a result I am now starving. Unfortunately I can't eat until thenumbess goes away.

Oh well.
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