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Subject: Way Better Than I Thought rss

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Matt Drake
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In the ten years that I've been writing game reviews, I've reversed my opinion on exactly two games. The first was one of my very first reviews, and I can't exactly cry over spilt milk (by the way, Nexus Ops is a pretty cool game). The second time was today.

When I posted my review of 2 de Mayo at BoardGameGeek, more than a dozen people showed up to emphatically inform me that not only had I not understood the game, but that I was probably illiterate and possibly retarded (I may have paraphrased a little). When one person takes offense, I know I did something right. When every single person hates the review, I may have overlooked something. So I talked my son into playing this with me one more time, to see if I might have been struck blind.

I was not blind, but I did mistake this game for something it was not. We played it all wrong (by which I mean we followed the rules, but didn't understand HOW you play), and now that I see what we did wrong, and the point of the game, it's actually a pretty damned fun game. It's short and interesting, and actually has a huge element of bluffing and sneaking and out-thinking.

Also, tonight the Spanish won.

I think a huge part of why this game irritated me so much was that my initial three plays were ruled by a ridiculous amount of bad luck for the Spaniards. Cards refused to work in their favor, no matter who was playing them, and the French seemed to be crapping gold nuggets. There are a few cards that the French can get that can really turn the tide, and several Spanish cards that rely on good timing to be effective. That just didn't work out in favor of the poor Spaniards, and the French just kept tearing through them like Rosie O'Donnell at a Vegas buffet.

Another factor was that the game doesn't really tell you what it is. It's not an area control game, and the Spanish don't win by outfighting the French. They really can't compete at all in a fight, but what they can do is run faster and hide better than the French. If you play this game thinking you'll score an early win by killing a bunch of Napoleon's finest, you're doing it wrong. You know, like we did.

The mechanics are really cool. The hidden orders and simultaneous movement is the kind of mechanic I would love to see in a regular tabletop wargame. The card play - well, honestly, I could live without it. I would just as soon see this whole game play out without any of the cards. I think it would be a much more interesting game if you weren't relying on luck to pull your fat out of the fire.

So my verdict is officially changing - and take a picture, because this doesn't happen a lot. 2 de Mayo is actually a very fun game. I will definitely play it again.

Now, just because I'm changing my stance on this one does not mean I'm making a habit of it. Look at my reviews of Shadows Over Camelot, Apples to Apples or Mutant Chronicles CMG - I'm not changing my mind on those. Still don't like 'em, and the number of people who told me I was wrong actually outnumbered the feedback for this game. But the way I see it, if you're going to be able to trust me when I tell you a game is good or bad, I need to be honest, even when it means I have to eat a little crow.

But I'm still not playing Puerto Rico again. SOOOO boring.

Summary

Pros:
Cool order and movement mechanics
Plays fast
Outbluff and outmaneuver your opponent - it's fun, I swear

Cons:
Card play can completely ruin it
Should probably tell you what kind of game it actually is

(This is the original review, preserved for historical accuracy, and so that all these comments make some semblance of sense.)

Some of the most exciting games come from historical events. The battles of World War II have spawned more games than nearly any other piece of the past, for example. Something about playing out actual events that actually occurred where actual people actually died makes people think, 'man, that would be a fun game.'

However, if you're going to make a game based on actual events, you should probably pick a day where one side didn't run through the other like crap through a goose. For instance, a game recreating the exciting events of Saint Valentine's Day would probably not be particularly engaging for anyone involved.

Another confrontation that would not make a fun game would the events of May 2, 1808, where the Spanish finally figured out that Napoleon was not bringing massive armies through Spain to help carry all the gift baskets. Because what actually happened was that the French completely decimated the Spanish, but they were so mean about it that the entire country rose up in rebellion. The day is celebrated in Spain as the birth of modern Spain.

While that is an important day, it's not exactly a balanced scenario. There were an absolutely ludicrous number of French soldiers in Madrid when the Spanish decided to get all testy, and it took them less than a day to kill just about every Spaniard in the city (well, that's an exaggeration, but the Spanish did take one hell of an ass-kicking). And when you faithfully recreate a bloody massacre as a game, it doesn't really lend itself to startlingly exciting game play. It's more like playing tetherball with a triple amputee - it's great to win, but you can't really be all that excited about it when the only time the ball was returned to you, it's because it bounced off the other guy's face.

The game has some potential - if it was a different game. You draw cards that can change the game and give you huge benefits, unless you're the Spanish and they won't actually do you any good. Then you write down your orders in secret, moving your soldiers all over the city. Both sets of orders are carried out at the same time, and then anywhere that one group is bigger than another group, the other group gets shot in the junk. If the two sides were balanced, this could have a ton of potential. The idea of bluffing, out-guessing and out-maneuvering another force is an interesting concept, and could really make for a fun game, if you don't start out with one side so beat down that they don't have a snowball's chance in Hell.

This is not even remotely fair. The French have a four-to-one numerical advantage over the Spanish, which means that if the Spanish don't win in the first two turns, they're probably screwed. And if they do manage to make it past the third turn, they're still probably screwed. The French run roughshod over the Spanish, and no stilted victory conditions are going to make up for the fact that one side is going to lose nine out of ten games.

In fact, I'm not really sure I would call this a game, as much as a history lesson played out with wood cubes. I'm all for theme and historical accuracy, but if you're going to try to be all historical, how about something like the Tet Offensive or Anthony versus Augustus? Some of the cards actually relate true stuff that happened - like French soldiers executing Spaniards in firing squads. The Spanish have lame cards that slow down one guy in a huge group, so that instead of being outnumbered five to one, they only have to face four times their number.

Call me crazy, but if I'm going to play out stuff that really happened, I don't think I would choose Kent State or Wounded Knee. I don't think I'm overly picky to want a game with some semblance of balance. If one side is going to slaughter the other, that's not a good scenario for a board game. That's a good scenario for a horror movie that ends badly.

It's a shame, really, because there are some cool parts of this game. The secret order and simultaneous movement could have a ton of potential in a different game. And the map is nice, too. But I don't ever want to play 2 de Mayo again, because I'm so dreadfully irritated at how hard it is for the Spanish to win. Take those cool mechanics and put them into a tactical game with a little balance to it, and I'm in. Instead, the Spanish player is going to finish every game waking up in the shower and wondering why his ass hurts.

Summary

Pros:
Some potentially cool mechanics
Nice map of Madrid
Plays fast, and easy to learn

Cons:
Unbalanced, unfair and unfun
Stilted, wholesale slaughter might make for great history lessons, but it makes a crappy game
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
VixenTorGames wrote:
...

...This is not even remotely fair. The French have a four-to-one numerical advantage over the Spanish, which means that if the Spanish don't win in the first two turns, they're probably screwed. And if they do manage to make it past the third turn, they're still probably screwed. The French run roughshod over the Spanish, and no stilted victory conditions are going to make up for the fact that one side is going to lose nine out of ten games...

...But I don't ever want to play 2 de Mayo again, because I'm so dreadfully irritated at how hard it is for the Spanish to win...


You mention the "stilted victory condtions", so I presume you have actually read them, but from the rest of the review you seem to be totally unaware as to what the victory conditions really are. You seem to think the Spanish need to defeat the French; in fact, the Spanish "win" in the game by making the revolt last longer than it did in reality. As a result, playing the Spanish is acutally easier for many people as destroying every single Spanish cube in 10 turns is quite a challenge. In this way, 2 de Mayo is like many "proper" wargames where the goal of one side is simply to stave off defeat longer than the historical counterparts. A hell of a lot of WWII games come under this category.

A lot of your reviews are relatively humorous, but you've completely misunderstood the point of this game.
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Russ Williams
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
VixenTorGames wrote:
no stilted victory conditions are going to make up for the fact that one side is going to lose nine out of ten games.

Have you played the game enough to make such an extreme claim? Your theorizing is at odds with my practical experience with the game.
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Maarten D. de Jong
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
I agree with the above posters. You (= Matt) seem to be playing the game with different rules than I understand them. In the five or six times that this game hit the table, it was always the Spanish who won by still having a few guys around; I came very close with winning with the French the last time, but got too greedy and mis-timed my tactics. Truly, I cannot imagine what you did to reverse the odds so diametrically.
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Vangelis Bagiartakis
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
From my experience with 2 de Mayo I wouldn't call this game unbalanced at all. I've had my ass kicked with both the Spanish and the French and I've also won a few games regardless of my side.

You just have to play each side differently. The Spaniards' goal is to bluff and out-manouevre the opponent. The French player tries to win with overwhelming numbers.

Most of the games I've played were really close and even when the outcome was evident a few turns before the end, it was due to a player's big tactical mistake.

The way I see it I can almost find no negatives in this game. It's very clever, fun and easy to play. Maybe you should give it another shot.
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
... and besides, you have to leave frenchmen to guard the entry points in order to secure a win.

Asymmetrical yes. Unbalanced? Don't think so.

Maybe your expectations of the game were a little too high because of all the hype about it on here? It's really just a quick little filler that becomes a little more strategic once both players know the cards. I think of it as the perfect pick-me-up coffee shop game.
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
I don't think that the game is unbalanced at all. In fact, if you ask the person I played on the last time he will say to you that the game is unbalanced and the French side will have no chance to win.

So??? Do you still think that the game is unbalanced for the French side? It really depends on how you play it and how the cards are played.

I really appreciate the game and after I've played it for the first time I really learned about this tragic day for Madrid. This was the reason I had to buy this game.
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
This game is not that unbalanced at all. I am guessing that you played the French side incorrectly. I would give it another play with the correct rules and see what you think.

I believe that 2 de Mayo is one of the more interesting 2 player games to come out in the past couple of years. Definitely has its own flavor.

-Brett

Actually, from re-reading your review, I am not even sure you played the same game as there are plenty of cards that help the Spanish and there are more cards that help the Spanish / hurt the French.
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Ethan Tan
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
I suspect Matt played this game like a wargame without reading the rulebook!
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
Not as good a review as usual - 2 de Mayo is a genuinely neat and balanced game, with asymmetric forces and victory conditions. There are some rules niggles, arising from when cards are played, but the designer has been great at answering questions here. So, give it another go...
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Tomas Lundin
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.

Oh boy you should have witnessed my last session when my wife (Spanish civilians) kicked my butt. I caught five of her ten cubes in turn ten only. The session before I eliminated her last red cube in turn ten.

I,ve played this enough to know that it's pretty hard to win with either side.

Unbalanced, unfun? How dare you?
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Felix Rodriguez
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
LOL. from reading your headline, I was assuming you had played the French!

Seriously, you MUST be reading the rules wrong.

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Mick Mickelsen
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
I too am puzzled by this review. It's as if he were reviewing a strategic American Civil War game and complaining it was no fun because in the few games he played the South never captured New York city. I found the game to be tense and balanced when one focused on the fact that in order for the French to win the French have to obliterate every Spanish cube. It's basically a cat and mouse game, not a dog fight.
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
I don't think he has actually read the victory conditions. The Spanish have won 2/3 games I played, not because they massed overwhelming force, but because some of their cubes survived to the end.
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Matt Drake
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
Of course I read the rules. I read them three times, and played the game multiple times. The French have to:

1) Control the gates at 1, 6, 16, and 20.

2) Eliminate all the Spanish units.

3) Lose less than four units (3 if the Spanish can play the 'Spanish win on 3' card).

Every time I played, the French cleaned up. Wasn't a contest. Not once. I played both sides, and I played different opponents, and even tried it once solo to see if I could come up with a solution for a Spanish win. I did not. I tried run-away-and-hide - didn't work. I tried take-out-three-French - didn't work. I tried control-the-gates - didn't work.

Perhaps the Spanish were betrayed by their cards. If you draw the 'block the gates at 20' card when the French are already in Madrid, that's wasted. If you draw the 'leave one French guy behind' card when you're about to be surrounded by five guys to your one, that's not going to do you much good. If you don't draw the 'get a free guy before turn 7' card until turn eight, you're going to wonder what sadistic bastard even put that in the game. In the several games that I played, the Spanish got maybe one or two useful cards, and the French couldn't get anything but solid gold.

The French never had any trouble killing the Spaniards. Our first game, that happened at the end of turn 4. Other games they lasted a little longer, but never all the way to the end. Every single time, the French not only beat up all the Spaniards, but they had time afterward to get to Happy Hour at the local tapas bar.

And hype? I didn't even know this game existed until I got it from Gryphon a couple weeks ago. I don't usually read reviews of games before I write about them. After I posted my review, I read through some of the reviews here, and my jaw dropped at the number of people who like 2 de Mayo.

Honestly, I'm glad so many people like this game. I don't, and neither did anyone with whom I played. But the review served its purpose - the publisher will likely sell more copies of it, because of the overwhelming support it receives here. So thank you for your replies and defense of the game - but I will tell you that anyone who questions whether I read the rules before I write my reviews can drive right to North Texas and kiss my white ass.
 
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
Matt, the problem is that everyone's experience with this game is that it is imbalanced towards the Spaniards! I have played or hosted this game about 30 times, and the Spaniards have won about 70% of the time. Perhaps you should play with a more experienced player, and find out what you are missing out on? You may find this a much more excellent game than you thought!

P.S. I really shouldn't question your rule-reading again, but just to check: did you play with the rule that the French can only make 2 orders per turn (with exceptions)? I personally do not see how is it possible for the French to win on the 4th turn. Certainly never seen it happen before!
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Maarten D. de Jong
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
Lemme rephrase this, otherwise the discussion gets to a level where it shouldn't go. To everyone who saw my earlier reply, I apologise for not thinking before pressing 'post!', helping the discussion to where it shouldn't go.

Look, the issue is not about trying to drive up the sales of a tiny publisher, nor is it about ardently defending a game so that its high rate stays up despite evidence which in your opinion points to the contrary. Having a different opinion is fine, even useful, but we ought to be sure that we're talking the same game here. And that is where the rub is, because everyone who contributed to this thread pointed out that their experiences are completely different than those of you. Heck, I was even explained the game by the author himself during Spiel, and what I read later in the rulebook sure didn't result in anything so completely different. Take for example your claim that in the first game you played, the French beat the Spaniards at the end of round 4. That's ... impossible. I can think of no way save active help from the Spaniards to pull this off. And even then I'd have to check whether you meet all requirements (holding onto the gates, for example). Can you remember what you and your opponent did that led to this victory?
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
boing123 wrote:

I personally do not see how is it possible for the French to win on the 4th turn. Certainly never seen it happen before!


I concur. Following the rules and with both sides attempting to win, I do not see how it is possible for the French to win on turn 4. They can only 'activate' two unit groups a turn for the most part.
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
VixenTorGames wrote:
The French never had any trouble killing the Spaniards. Our first game, that happened at the end of turn 4. Other games they lasted a little longer, but never all the way to the end. Every single time, the French not only beat up all the Spaniards, but they had time afterward to get to Happy Hour at the local tapas bar.

I can see why you view the game as you did, with this experience, so fair enough, but it does just feel out of line with the general experience. This isn't my top-rated game, and I've no problem with contrary reviews - like them, in fact - but something doesn't seem quite right here.
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Matt Drake
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
It's entirely possible that in the first game, when neither of us really knew what we were doing, the Spaniards kind of threw themselves on the French swords. That's when we were going for the 'kill three French' win. The Spanish were trying to take advantage of the French troops all hanging out outside the gates to try to overwhelm the French. And there was a serious tactical mistake when the Spanish tried to keep alive the guy in area 10 by keeping three guys there, even though that French guy couldn't be killed because of the artillery. Then the French pulled that reinforcement card, and before you know it, the Spanish guys are falling like rain.

Another thing that might have killed us was that nearly every time, the French player pulled Murat before turn 3, and with artillery already in play, was able to bring in all the troops by turn 3. I may have just seen several turns of bad luck in a row - Spanish pulling cards they couldn't use while the French just kept breaking out the awesome, for instance.

Obviously my experience with the game did not match that of most people here. I see overwhelming evidence that 2 de Mayo does have some merit, and I acknowledge that from an objective standpoint, I should be able to see more value in it. It's just that after all the frustrating games I played, it's difficult for me to reconcile the possibility that anyone, anywhere would enjoy this game, because I really, emphatically hated it.
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
VixenTorGames wrote:
It's entirely possible that in the first game, when neither of us really knew what we were doing, the Spaniards kind of threw themselves on the French swords. That's when we were going for the 'kill three French' win. The Spanish were trying to take advantage of the French troops all hanging out outside the gates to try to overwhelm the French. And there was a serious tactical mistake when the Spanish tried to keep alive the guy in area 10 by keeping three guys there, even though that French guy couldn't be killed because of the artillery. Then the French pulled that reinforcement card, and before you know it, the Spanish guys are falling like rain.


Oooh... From my experience:

1) NEVER go for the kill 3 french strategy as your main line of attack. It's not meant to be a strategy. Think of it as more of a deterrent.

2) Ignore the guy in area 10. There are ways to save him, but it really isn't worth it.
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Matt Drake
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
cymric wrote:
Can you remember what you and your opponent did that led to this victory?

You are right that the French don't technically win until turn 10 - it's right there in the rules, where it says the French don't win until turn 10. So controlling the gates didn't happen until several turns after the end of the game. But it was all over but the crying after turn 4, because all the red cubes were off the board.

In that turn 4 win, the French player pulled both Murat and the reinforcement, so instead of his normal 2, he was able to flood the Spanish from multiple directions. Also, the Spanish player clumped up real bad, and the French overwhelmed him. Also, the Spanish player tried to keep from losing guys by placing too many in area 10, where the French had +2 strength thanks to artillery, and the Spanish guy dumped too many guys in there. The reinforcement broke the balance and got those guys all killed.

So we just kept playing and flipping cards. The Spanish got the anytime reinforcement in 2,3 or 4, but sadly, everyone was dead already. Then on turn 10 he got the anywhere reinforcement, but it was after turn 7.
 
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Felix Rodriguez
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
Another way to think of this:

if you have 10 units that are spread out, and the french can only move twice. At most they take 5 turns to kill you. If you manage to outbluff the French 5 times out of 10 rounds, you will last all 10 rounds.

Of course, the cards throw a wrench into the fire, but to be honest, I find the Spanish cards to be better at saving units than the French cards are at killing them.
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
I admittedly didn't read the entire thread, but I love 2 de Mayo too much to not stand up for it a bit. I think this review entirely mischaracterizes a great game that packs a lot of fun strategy and wargame mechanics into a tiny, fast-playing package. I've had fun playing both sides and most games are nail-biters to the end.
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Re: A Total Beatdown. And the Game Is Tough, Too.
I've won one game of 2 de Mayo as the French, that was against my roomate and I barely won.

I've since then lost every game I've played as the French to my gf who just loves to play as the spanish! This game may be unbalanced, but not in favor of the French. No way. Unbalanced or not, I love this game. Every time I play as the French I really feel like I'm trying to chase down and suppress those rebelious Spanish dogs. And when I play the Spanish I feel like I'm really trying to cause havok for the bastard French forces while avoiding their capture at the same time. The theme really does it for me in this game!
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