Recommend
27 
 Thumb up
 Hide
130 Posts
[1]  Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 

Ogre» Forums » General

Subject: Kwanchai's Ogre rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Slev Sleddeddan
United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester
flag msg tools
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
badge
Don't you open that trapdoor!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jBullfrog wrote:
I don't like what SJG did the same way I don't like celebrities that insult people when asked for their autograph.


The problem here is the interaction of legality and morality.

The re-design didn't break the purpose of the law, and nothing was done which was immoral, thus people will become upset that it was stopped.

However, for a majority of businesses, the letter of certain laws and/or regulations must be met for them to operate, even if they do not wish to.

As an example, at work, one of the departments I run is the customer service arm, and I take a few calls to keep my claw in. A gentleman I spoke to was frustrated at our system, until I pointed out that it's due to the over-regulation of our industry. As a businessman himself, he understood that we where doing what we where required to by law/regulation, and his real complaint was not with us, but our industry's governing body and certain facets of UK law.

People who are upset at what SJG have done are basically mad that JG are doing what the law effectively forces them to do, even if it's bad for their business. You're thus mad at the wrong people.

There are many people agitating for revisions of IP laws to reflect the ways technology has changed society. This is a good example of why.


Robrob wrote:
Paul,

I totally understand and support your company's policy as well as copyright law. Out of curiosity, if Kwanchai had posted his art;

1) Without the copyrighted rules.

2) Using generic terms other than Ogre and/or other SJG's copyrighted text.

In other words, would a "generic" rendition have been possibly acceptable (e.g. non-threatening to the copyright)?

Also, has SJG given any thought to purchasing Kwanchai's art for a future "alternative" re-release of SJG flagship game?



In all honesty, I doubt anyone at SJG could answer this question in an open/public/recordable format.

The dirty secret of gaming communities like this is that a LOT of what we do is borderline if not outright illegal.

Most companies get around this by simply only speaking up when they have to. If SJG speak up now and say what you can and can't do, their hand is forced and they'll have to have taken down even more stuff, or else write so broad a remit they're effectively giving away their IP.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gene Dickens
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, legalism and laws have been the stagnation and destruction of many countries. Once someone finds a way around a law, another has to be enacted, etc. etc. ad naseum.

got go, mom is not responding to her nurse and is having troubles breathing.

Gene
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Rob
United States
Tampa
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I still think SJG are damn fools if they don't license Kwanchai's artwork. arrrh
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
WAN CHIU
United States
Arcadia
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Dang, Got anked before I grabbed it.

How about rename everything and re-release it as Super_Nazi_bot(tm).

If I remembered correctly game mechanics cannot be copyrighted.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hungary
Budapest
flag msg tools
Welcome to the finals of the 43rd Stare Out Tournament. Press Esc to start.
Avatar
mb
kwanchai wrote:
I won't be reposting a stripped down version of the redesign to BGG, since a new edition seems to be on its way. And, by the way, I'm definitely buying a copy when it does come out, since I believe the game to be absolutely brilliant and SJG deserves money for their game.


Then at least please consider to repost it as a Miscellaneous Game Accessory. I've never heard of Ogre before seeing your redesign, it doesn't hold any sentimental value for me, and the mechanism in itself is OK, but nothing earth shattering, so I probably wouldn't buy the new edition anyway. (And on a sidenote, the home made version had cost me about 60 bucks)

I made a copy only because your board and units are excellent, and I don't care much about the rules. In my opinion your work stand tall alone as a generic wargame set, and would generate interest without referring any way to Ogre.

Anyways, thank you for the great work.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christian Sperling
Germany
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh no, not again...shake

How is the status about a new edition of Ogre?

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gene Dickens
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well I had just finnished a post and the cursor was heading for the submit button when Vista updates struck completely wiping out my post. Here is the summary:

Topic concerned plagerism.

I'm sure I've screwed someplace, but, I've also been plagerized, and in a big way.

SJG, I think you made a huge mistake not contacting Mr Kwanchai before you sicked the lawyers on him. He has stated that he was not tryig to rip you off, and I think he was trying to help. Yes, no good deed goes unpunished.

Mr Kwanchai, you are going to have to ask permission before you do any future graphic upgrades. Most companies won't mind, others will want contracts, some will still be skunks.

Mom passed away, next posts late on the weekend.

Gene
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Stellmach
United States
Arlington
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chooche wrote:
If I remembered correctly game mechanics cannot be copyrighted.

You remember correctly, but understand incorrectly. This is a common point of confusion.

Game mechanics are procedures, and procedures themselves are not eligible for copyright (though they may be patentable).

However, the rulebooks that describe those procedures are authored texts, and most certainly are protected by copyright.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Stellmach
United States
Arlington
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GeneGeek7 wrote:
Oh yeah, Mr "Crazy Talk", explain yourself.

No. What you said was absurd on the face of it, and to debate it would be to pretend that it was sane. It may be a job for a psychologist, but not for me.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Chapman
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GeneGeek7 wrote:
SJG, I think you made a huge mistake not contacting Mr Kwanchai before you sicked the lawyers on him.


First, I'm sorry to hear about your mother. Losing a parent is incredibly difficult for anyone.

Second, I'm afraid you're operating on inaccurate information. We did not "sick" lawyers on Kwanchai. Following BGG procedures, we requested certain files be removed, citing our legal rights that had been violated.

Finally, Slev said many smart things in his post earlier in this thread. The law protects us, but also requires us to do certain things.
--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K.Y. Wong
Singapore
Gardens by the Bay
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Gene, sorry to hear about your loss. It is a good reminder that we should not forget the importance of maintaining social bonds while we pursue material goals.

In a way, it is analogous to the situation that has developed with regards to kwanchai's redesign for Ogre.

I believe there is no doubt in anybody's mind that kwanchai's redesign was a tribute to the original Ogre. It was an inspired piece of work with a brilliant concept and incredible attention to detail. Such an effort could only have come from having a deep love and admiration for the original game, further evidenced by it being made freely available. There wasn't even the slightest hint of selfish intent, therefore it was not an effort to undermine the IP. Rather the intent was clearly to promote a game that had long gone under the radar of most gamers.

Paul, since you are the Marketing Director, this should be of interest to you. In my case, I had never even heard of Ogre. It was only after admiring kwanchai's work that I checked out the entry on BGG to know more about the game that had inspired such artistry. FYI, I downloaded the files but have not made the considerable effort to make my own copy. More importantly, Ogre is now permanently etched in my mind and I will certainly take an interest in any new edition. For this, you have kwanchai to thank.

Going back to my analogy, it irks me (doing my best to avoid strong words) that in SJG's perfectly understandable attempt to protect their IP, they did not acknowledge the human aspect which is the love that kwanchai had for their game.

Even in war, a soldier acting on orders from (idiotic) higher-ups can still choose to express the greatest respect for a deserving opponent.

In my not-so-humble opinion, I strongly feel that kwanchai is an "opponent" who at the very least must be acknowledged for his unselfish efforts.

Better still, buy his design and release the new edition tomorrow!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bwian, just
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chromaticdragon wrote:
In my not-so-humble opinion, I strongly feel that kwanchai is an "opponent" who at the very least must be acknowledged for his unselfish efforts.

That would be a classy thing to do. I hadn't really noticed his mod before this thread; I'm much more of a SF guy than a WWII guy, even if you throw in pulpy Nazi super-science. I'm just not up for dragging down SJG for lack of maximum classiness.

chromaticdragon wrote:
Better still, buy his design and release the new edition tomorrow!

As I understand it from reading the SJG forums, the holdup is getting all the cardboard printed for a non-prohibitive cost. New artwork or theming won't solve that problem.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Everts
United States
Foothill Ranch
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
"Nobody gets me. I'm the wind, baby!" - Tom Servo
badge
"Push the button, Frank!"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bwian wrote:
chromaticdragon wrote:
Better still, buy his design and release the new edition tomorrow!

As I understand it from reading the SJG forums, the holdup is getting all the cardboard printed for a non-prohibitive cost. New artwork or theming won't solve that problem.

I think there's room enough for multiple editions of the game. SJG hasn't had a version of Ogre on the market for many years. And they are having component problems getting their super fancy edition done. This one could be done with simplier components like you see done by GMT. Make it a variant with 11x17 map, 3/4" counters and ship it out. I know I'd buy it and then buy the later fancy edition. They are missing a great opportunity to get this game back on the market in a fun special edition version.

As both Kwanchai and others have said, there was no malicious intent, just support for a great game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremiah
United States
Madison
WI
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ScottE wrote:
This one could be done with simplier components like you see done by GMT.

Or sold on the SJG online site, http://e23.sjgames.com/ at almost no additional cost... I wonder, why didn't they do this?

Was their reasoning mentioned in the other thread?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Rob
United States
Tampa
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
As I understand it from reading the SJG forums, the holdup is getting all the cardboard printed for a non-prohibitive cost. New artwork or theming won't solve that problem.


Oh come on, they don't need pewter minis and 3D geometric board, it's OGRE for gosh sakes. It hasn't been published in years, start with he basic game, come out with a "deluxe" version, then start with the collectible minis. It's a proven economic model.

16 page rule booklet, 8.5 x 11" map sheet, single card of regular sized counters. Even with a (un)reasonable profit margin, how much could that cost?

Victory Point games is doing it for $20.
arrrh
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marshall Miller
United States
Malden
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
The Warren is a roleplaying game about intelligent rabbits trying to make the best of a world filled with hazards, predators and, worst of all, other rabbits.
badge
Marshall is a Boston-based researcher and game designer.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ogre would be awesome in a HeroScapeformat. Little 40K:epic sized units, modular hex terrain, hex sized OGREs, collectible/expandable but also complete in its base set form.

Also awesome would be releasing OGRE in as one of the Lego board games. You could have OGRE Lego design contests, etc.

Also awesome would be releasing OGRE in a card game form ala Battleground. This way you could play anywhere and there would be a very simple deck creation system, but you could have factions galore and lots of promo OGREs and units...
[edit: would also work on Pog-like poker chips]

Ok, back down to earth now....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bwian, just
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robrob wrote:
Quote:
As I understand it from reading the SJG forums, the holdup is getting all the cardboard printed for a non-prohibitive cost. New artwork or theming won't solve that problem.

Oh come on, they don't need pewter minis and 3D geometric board, it's OGRE for gosh sakes. It hasn't been published in years, start with he basic game, come out with a "deluxe" version, then start with the collectible minis. It's a proven economic model.

You can buy Ogre minis right now, at Warehouse 23. The Ogre Miniatures rules are available right now, at e23. If it's miniatures you're after, you don't need to wait another day.

The thing that's getting delayed is a new counter-and-hexmap edition of the game. They want to make it a nice production; my guess is they're aiming for Conflict of Heroes-level components, although that's just my educated guess from reading the forums. That shouldn't, in theory, take too much extra effort. But as I said, it turns out that the cardboard is being more expensive than expected. Given the option between lowering quality and trying to work their suppliers, they decided to work their suppliers. It hasn't panned out (yet), but that's 20/20 hindsight; if something had shaken loose in the first month, this thread would look very different...

P.S. I'm curious which game followed your proven economic model path: BattleTech? It just occurred to me that most of the CMGs I've seen have sprung forth fully-formed from the forehead of Zeus, rather than a slow evolution of quality/cost like you describe.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Pytel
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bwian wrote:
If it's miniatures you're after, you don't need to wait another day.

Interesting. Last I checked (maybe 8 months ago?), nearly everything apart from obscure, crappy units was unavailable. Now nearly everything is back in stock. They must have been doing some serious casting work last summer. And yet they can't find the money to print the game? Very strange.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bwian, just
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tppytel wrote:
Bwian wrote:
If it's miniatures you're after, you don't need to wait another day.

Interesting. Last I checked (maybe 8 months ago?), nearly everything apart from obscure, crappy units was unavailable. Now nearly everything is back in stock. They must have been doing some serious casting work last summer. And yet they can't find the money to print the game? Very strange.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=59914

It's an interesting read. I won't say it shows SJG in the best possible light, but it doesn't seem that money is the limiting factor on Ogre minis. FWIW.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gene Dickens
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks Paul. Mom had been having heart problems for a year. We think her heart just stopped. Thankfully, we don't think she was in pain at the time. It's really hard to look at her empty bed. Enough!

OK, you're right. I do not understand BGG procedures concerning copyright laws. However, in do believe that compromise is always the best first step. That is, compromise based on infomation and agreement. I think we've forgotten how. However, if need be, I believe in appropriate and measured escalation to solve problems, even to calling in the lawyers.

And yes, I believe in compromise even over my own tirades. I was very angry that such a creative and innovative company such as SJG, with your history, would do such a thing. Yes, Paul, you protected your Intellectual Property rights, rights you rightfully deserve. But, are we reaping the whirlwind in this case? Could you have come to some sort of compromise first? Unfortunately, more trees will probably die.

I understand that laws can protect us. Traffic laws are a good example. While many of you might disagree, traffic laws are there for your safety and convience. I also understand that we need to follow laws so that we profit from them. But , I cannot agree with the blind adherence to laws. I was a Unit Administrator in the Army Reserves for 16 years. I have seen regulations applied in such a manner as to be bizarre. I don't agree with this mentallity initially, it stifles business and creativity. I only agree that strict adherence to the law, in cases like this, should be used as a last resort

Finally, Mr Kwanchai, you really need to start asking permission to do graphic upgrades as the law has change recently. It will keep you out of trouble. That goes for the rest of you lugs too. You are a great artist and your concepts on this project were top notch. By not contacting SJG and asking for permission, you are the one that has reaped the whirlwind. As I understand now, it could have been worse.

Yeah, I belive the law just recently changed. Just because you don't charge for the use of someone's IP, and you simply use it without permission, you could be violating the law. I'll see what I can find.

Thanks again Paul about concern for mom.

Goodnight

Gene


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Chapman
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tppytel wrote:
Interesting. Last I checked (maybe 8 months ago?), nearly everything apart from obscure, crappy units was unavailable. Now nearly everything is back in stock. They must have been doing some serious casting work last summer. And yet they can't find the money to print the game? Very strange.


Restocking minis and reprinting Ogre? Not really in the same ballpark.

Miniatures casting is a "file an order" process; all the actual work is done by a third party. (Said third party had some issues which delayed the delivery for several months.) The total bill was a few thousand dollars.

Reprinting Ogre requires many hours of communication with factories in China, writing and rewriting product specs. We have an ideal in our minds, but financial realities force compromises. Each compromise must be examined for alternatives, which takes even more time. And finally, given the print run we're looking at, the total bill will be many tens of thousands of dollars.
--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Chapman
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GeneGeek7 wrote:
Could you have come to some sort of compromise first?


Based on the legal guidance our lawyers have given us, the only compromise possible was following our Online Policy. Once the files which violated that Policy were posted, our only option was to demand their removal.
--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For those that think SJG is a lone actor in actively defending their IP, one only has to look to Games Workshop for an example of a more "diligent" defender. There is a Blood Bowl thread about how GW came into a BB forum and threatened legal action because the name of the forum had the words Blood Bowl in it and there was a donations button for site upkeep. They interpreted this as a possible use of a GW product for profit, which is a legal interpretation. Some would say that it is pushing it and a tad pedantic, but the same principle applies, if you allow even a tiny amount of leeway, some other less noble "entrepeneur" will take that sign of weakness and manipulate it into them making money off of someone elses creation. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's very hard to reverse. That is only one example, GW is known for it's strict stance about it's IP.

On a different tangent, I think the age of easily accessible, relatively inexpensive scanning & printing solutions has driven companies away from products like the original SJG pocket-box games. They are too easy to reproduce on a very equal basis. Putting extra time and production into a reprint of Ogre will create a product with real value that copying will result in an inferior product. It's hard to compete with print-n-play, but excellent production values can do it.

On the other hand, I think it's a great business model that SJG has embraced with e23 and supplying many products in PDF form. They recently made available a beautifully crafted PDF of the out-of-print 2.5 edition rules for Car Wars. It's a great plan, because people who are still in love with Car Wars 2.5 can get the PDF, encourage others to get the PDF and it minimized SJG's risk of a print run that only applies to a niche group and might not make a profit. Now if you are Car Wars 2.5 fan, you decide if you need a hard copy or not, but you still have the latest greatest rules. It is a risk though, in that dishonest people will disseminate the PDF, and I think it's very generous of SJG to take that risk to give Car Wars fans a great tool.

Who knows, maybe after the Ogre Reprint hits the shelves, SJG will pay Kwanchai so they can put a Print-N-Play version of Alt-WWII Re-Themed Ogre up on e23 as a fun alternative.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Heck within an hour of writing that last post, I see that just today SJG has made the AADA Vehicle Guide Counters Expansion available as a PDF. Car Wars 2.5 is almost 100% print-n-play now! With graph paper and some turning keys, it is! I like it. I'm not trying to derail, just re-iterating that SJG does make some decisions that help out the customers and places the company in a position to be abused. This way they protect their trademark and we get out-of-print resources back into circulation. I think it's a very unselfish gesture.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seth Owen
United States
Norwich
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Games Workshop won't even allow secondary market sellers to post pictures of their products, which I think is definitely obnoxious and stretching the law past the breaking point. It would be like Ford demanding that used car sellers NOT use pictures of their cars in ads.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.