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Subject: Kwanchai's Ogre rss

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Gene Dickens
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I'm to tired to fight tonight.

However, SJG appears to be well within their rights to ask BGG to remove Mr. Kwanchai's material. And, as Paul noted above, SJG's copyright policies are posted to there website. And, as Paul has also stated, SJG's policies do not allow for comprimise of violations of there copyrights. As I'm going to SJG's website to check out their new Car Wars PnP, I am going to check out how easy it is to find their copyright policies.

But, even before that, I will make this recommendation. Any and all copyright policies should have a link on the company's home page. The link should be easy to find, the lettering should be of a resonable size, and the coloring of the letters and boxes of the link should stand-out from the colors of the home page background. When the link transfers to the copyright policy webpage the text should be black lettering on a white page so as to make it easy to read and print. It should not be written in legalese. It shuold be easy to read and understand. And, the company's entire copyright policy should be included on the copyright policy webpage, regardless of length.

Yeah, it might not be bad to have a link from the copyright policy webpage so that individuals can request exceptions to the company's copyright policies, if, the company allows such exceptions. If the company does not allow for exceptions, a statement noting that exceptions are not allowed needs to be included on the copyright policy webpage.

So much for no fight left.

Well, this wraps it up for me.

Gene
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Gene Dickens
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SJG's policy site is a little hard to find. But its there, and its thorough.

One more recommendation. The copyright policy link should worded: Company Copyright Policy Link.

Where was I.
 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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wargamer55 wrote:
Games Workshop won't even allow secondary market sellers to post pictures of their products, which I think is definitely obnoxious and stretching the law past the breaking point. It would be like Ford demanding that used car sellers NOT use pictures of their cars in ads.



Actually, I think you've miss-read the policy on that one.

They don't allow use of their product in illustrating third party products.

So, for example, Battle Foam can't illustrate the use of their trays with Citadel miniatures. If they are selling Citadel miniatures painted, they could show the finished figures for sale.
 
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Seth Owen
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Slev wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:
Games Workshop won't even allow secondary market sellers to post pictures of their products, which I think is definitely obnoxious and stretching the law past the breaking point. It would be like Ford demanding that used car sellers NOT use pictures of their cars in ads.



Actually, I think you've miss-read the policy on that one.

They don't allow use of their product in illustrating third party products.

So, for example, Battle Foam can't illustrate the use of their trays with Citadel miniatures. If they are selling Citadel miniatures painted, they could show the finished figures for sale.


They may do that as well.


No, they have contacted secondary market sellers and demanded that they not illustrate their products.

I show an exam ple at my blog here:[url] http://pawnderings.blogspot.com/2009/09/warhammer-is-obnoxio...[/url]

 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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wargamer55 wrote:

No, they have contacted secondary market sellers and demanded that they not illustrate their products.

I show an exam ple at my blog here:[url] http://pawnderings.blogspot.com/2009/09/warhammer-is-obnoxio...[/url]



Well, I can't gain any factual information from that link, but I d recall them smacking down people stealing GW's images to advertise their products, in some cases, linking to pics on the GW site, which is bandwidth theft along with copyright breach.

Since I believe in "innocent until proven guilty", I'm not going to believe either party has done anything wrong and reserve judgement.

However, it would be the case that you couldn't copy or deep-link an image from the GW site to advertise the product, unless you have their specific permission.
 
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Gene Dickens
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Epitaph;

Well I feel I have failed to right what I felt was a wrong. My apologies to Mr Kwanchai and Steve Jackson Games for stirring up this nest of hornets.

And, while laws are here to protect our safety, rights, and property, I feel they can be stiff and inflexable at times. I also believe that we have a legal culture in this country were we hide behind our laws, many times to keep from having to make decisions or to simply maintaining control which sometimes can be tightfisted.

Mr Kwanchai, DO NOT GIVE UP! You're concept was BRILLIANT. Much better than anything I've done, and I've won a Charlie. But please, ask permission first so you don't don't get into any trouble. And if the company says NO, don't do it. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

Gene

Oh yeah, I have Kwanchai's remake of WIZWAR. Another great remake of possiblely the best wizard fighting game yet. You know Kwanchai, beyond asking permission to do free posts, you might want to consider getting contracts for your work and making some money for it. Eh, think about it.
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Scott Walschlager
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There is another approach to this issue that seems to have been overlooked so far. Let me first state that I am not a lawyer, nor am I qualified to give anyone legal advice, but I have had some prior exposure to copyright and trademark issues as well as product licensing.

Steve Jackson Games (SJG) could potentially sell licences for other developers to produce "approved for use with OGRE" products that are "officially licenced" from the current rights holders. It is possible that by charging for these licenses SJG would be showing sufficient action to protect their interests. They would retain creative control over what is acceptable to their quality standards and reject substandard work. The fee structure could be set so as to encourage "fan based" work.

I don't claim that this is a definitive answer but it might merit further discussion.

Scott
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Gene Dickens
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Scott:

To quote from Army of Darkness:

King Arthur to Bruce Campbell: I don't think he'll list'n to ya lad.

Gene
 
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Paul Chapman
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sgw349cs wrote:
There is another approach to this issue that seems to have been overlooked so far.


Steve Jackson Games has discussed a licensing option many times. However, each time the conclusion is the same: maintaining quality control over the submissions would require more resources than the fees would offset.
--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206
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Gene Dickens
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Hmm, you're right Paul. Even with the most sucessful game companies resources can be tight.

FYI, the last I heard it cost close to $100,000- to publish a GMT style game. And VPG said the higest cost component of their games is the cards. And of course, SJG does a lot of card games.

Yeah, I'm still split on this issue. But, I'm not running their company, that's up to them. As far as critiquing their operations, I have only tried four times to get games printed, and only succeded twice. Only once have I tried to check into running a game company. And, since SJG is a viable company, they must be doing it right, regardless of my opinion.

The only thing that I can say about SJG are critiques of their finnished products. I feel qualified to do this as I have won a CSR for one of the games that was printed. Also, I helped Vance von Borries playtest many of his games for nearly two decades. And I own over 500 games at this time. I have played FtF over half of these games, but, of late, its been hard to find opponents here in Tucson.

So, here is my only critique of a SJG game. Munchin Quest can be a bit fiddley. Unless you organize your monsters before the game, it can be a bit frustrating trying to find the right monster when needed. Alphabetizing them might work, but, I think sorting them buy size and strength would be the best way. Otherwise, this game is just as hysterical and fun as the rest of the Munchkin mayhem.

Still fluxsummoned.

Gene
 
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Greg Humphreys
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GeneGeek7 wrote:
Scott:

To quote from Army of Darkness:

King Arthur to Bruce Campbell: I don't think he'll list'n to ya lad.

Gene


Sorry to interrupt, but Henry said this, not King Arthur.

And now back to your regularly scheduled Ogre discussion.
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Gene Dickens
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OOOPS!!!

Shame on me, I'm a big Army of Darkness fan.

OK, lets see, what will be my excuse. Lets see, ADD, nah. Oh yeah, my allergy meds, yeah that's it my allergy meds make me confused.

Yeah, I know, I'M A NAUGHY BOY, NAUGHTY, NAUGHTY, NAUGHTY BOY.

tHANKS gREG

Oh Poopie!

Gene
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Gene Dickens
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I new I could kill this thread.

Those last quotes were from MST3K, the Movie.
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Scott Everts
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GeneGeek7 wrote:
I new I could kill this thread.

Those last quotes were from MST3K, the Movie.

Being a big MST3K fan I noticed! But then look at my avatar!
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Gene Dickens
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LOL

I always looked forward to MST3K, a bright spot during the week.
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j b Goodwin

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Quality control in SJG. Kids Love Irony.
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Kwanchai Moriya
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I never really look through my user gallery, since mostly I just use it to hold pictures that I want to insert into BGG articles that I write (which is rarely). But, I just discovered that all the pictures that I had of my Ogre redesign stuff has been removed from my user gallery, without me knowing. I mean no big deal I guess, but...really?
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Scott Everts
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kwanchai wrote:
I never really look through my user gallery, since mostly I just use it to hold pictures that I want to insert into BGG articles that I write (which is rarely). But, I just discovered that all the pictures that I had of my Ogre redesign stuff has been removed from my user gallery, without me knowing. I mean no big deal I guess, but...really?

Are you serious??? That is fucking insane! I've never had my user gallery deleted. How come all the pics are still in the Ogre image gallery? What the hell? I'd write Aldie, that is crossing the line.
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Chakroun Karim
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No "All" I guess?
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/images/user/122541

edit: but I see some pics from your thread (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/398921 )only appear as thumbnails now... I'd archive it if I were you. Sad.
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Kwanchai Moriya
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carthaginian wrote:
No "All" I guess?
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/images/user/122541

edit: but I see some pics from your thread (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/398921 )only appear as thumbnails now... I'd archive it if I were you. Sad.


Right, not all the Ogre images from my gallery, but all the images that had "Ogre" written somewhere in the image, I believe. The concept drawings and stuff are still there. Almost all the images linked to my Ogre redesign article[/c] have been removed.
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Jeremiah
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This is ridiculous... BOOOOOO!!!!!!!

What is the reason for this? How are images of fan creations against the law?

w.t.f.
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Scott Everts
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It's stuff like this that really sours me to making fan content. After the whole Ogre situation and now Games Workshop file pulls I'm really getting annoyed. We do this to SUPPORT these games, not hurt anyone. With GW, some of the files pulled were stuff like FAQ's and Play Aids, even for games that haven't been supported for YEARS!

At least one bright spot for me. I did a new play aid for Mecanisburgo: Expansion 1 – Moon and Ceres recently and the designer thanked me on the forums. Plus he's thanked me for the original Mecanisburgo play aid I did and even sent me free stuff in the mail. Nice to see SOME publishers get it while some of the old dinosaurs don't. But we all know what happened to the dinosaurs don't we!
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Wulf Corbett
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jBullfrog wrote:
What is the reason for this? How are images of fan creations against the law?
If the images contained material which was itself covered by the requirement of removal (which would primarily mean the 'OGRE' title), then it would have to be removed from the BGG servers. While it may not have been legally enforceable, it's almost certainly just easier that way...
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Jeremiah
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
it's almost certainly just easier that way...

Sucks that that is a legitimate reason... but you're right: it's no way close to being legal, but a hell of a lot cheaper then getting a lawyer to help out. legal injustice.

ScottE wrote:
some of the files pulled were stuff like FAQ's and Play Aids

not to mention the translations!
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Gene Dickens
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UNBELIEVEABLE! WHAT GALL!!

I was right in the first place.

Kwanchai, I was going to write you privately and express my opinion on SJG. I feel, however, now, that it is best said in public.

I feel that SJG felt that your game was better than the original. While I can only speculate as to there reasoning, I believe that they felt threatened by the concept and quality of your version of the game. And, there may have been some personal interplay by the games original designer and you.

Sad.

Time to fire up the barbie. Oh wait, fire regulations. I guess garbage bags at 20 paces.

Absolutly disgusted.
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