Recommend
27 
 Thumb up
 Hide
130 Posts
[1]  Prev «  2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6  Next »  [6] | 

Ogre» Forums » General

Subject: Kwanchai's Ogre rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Christian Link
United States
Snowmass Village
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Quote:
Oh yeah, Mr "Crazy Talk", explain yourself. Bullying is still Bullying no matter what form it comes in.


I thought the reason SJG was visited by the men in black was ultimately for the same reason, alleged stolen data from an individual working there.

I don't wanna fight about it either, but I'm perplexed as I am a fan of both games and thier authors.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gene Dickens
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Christian,

Yes, both games are good. It bothers me that They had K's game removed from the BGG. But the BGG is not the only site were They have had there materials removed.

Is He trying to put himself out of business, does he have a bunch of idiots for lawyers, doesn't He care about his clientel, or what?

Still fluxsummoned.

Gene

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Chapman
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GeneGeek7 wrote:
I feel that SJG felt that your game was better than the original. While I can only speculate as to there reasoning, I believe that they felt threatened by the concept and quality of your version of the game. And, there may have been some personal interplay by the games original designer and you.


You could speculate as to the reasoning, or you could read my post from earlier in this very thread.

"Based on the legal guidance our lawyers have given us, the only compromise possible was following our Online Policy. Once the files which violated that Policy were posted, our only option was to demand their removal."

Trademark violation has nothing to do with the personal feelings of the individuals involved or the quality of the violating material. This is the legal system, and we are following it -- and protecting ourselves -- to the best of our IP lawyer's advice.

--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Chapman
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cptwacky wrote:
I thought the reason SJG was visited by the men in black was ultimately for the same reason, alleged stolen data from an individual working there.


Actually, it was the Secret Service, not the MIB.

And their raid was part of a nationwide investigation into data piracy (you can read all about it here: http://www.sjgames.com/SS/). The removal of these files was the result of trademark and copyright violations. Data piracy and trademark violations are *very* different things.

We allow and encourage fan-created support materials for our games. However, the legal system being what it is, we are forced to put certain restrictions on that material. We have those restrictions posted in our Online Policy (found here: http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html) to try to avoid situations like this.
--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremiah
United States
Madison
WI
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PaulChapman wrote:
We allow and encourage fan-created support materials for our games. However, the legal system being what it is, we are forced to put certain restrictions on that material. We have those restrictions posted in our Online Policy (found here: http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html) to try to avoid situations like this.

I'm sorry, but SJG's online policy, as stated at the above address, coupled with the removal of images in Kwanchai's personal gallery (and what those images contained), makes just about any fan creation going forward impossible.

With as broad a stroke as SJG has decided to take, more than half the images in the Ogre image gallery could be taken down:

SJ Games online policy wrote:
Post (or make available for download) forms, charts, tables and text from one of your games?
No; that is a violation of copyright. We understand that it is convenient to gamers if some forms and charts are online, and we have already posted many of them ourselves. You should look at our page for the game you are interested in, to see if perhaps we have already posted the material you want. But we can't give permission to put more and more of each game on the web . . . eventually the whole text would be online, for free, and we couldn't sell any books . . .

How many pics show counter stats, ogre hit tables, or CRTs? "text" from one of your games? That is *way* too general.

And then, instead of going after these images, Kwanchai had his personal gallery images removed because they used the word "Ogre". How are we not supposed to see this as being selective? Should this image get removed?

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Chapman
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jBullfrog wrote:
How many pics show counter stats, ogre hit tables, or CRTs? "text" from one of your games? That is *way* too general.


There is a difference between a photo of IP ("Here's a game in progress -- look at all the counters!") and a reproduceable image version of IP ("Here's a 700dpi scan of a sheet of counters").

jBullfrog wrote:
And then, instead of going after these images, Kwanchai had his personal gallery images removed because they used the word "Ogre". How are we not supposed to see this as being selective?


Sorry, but we don't have time or inclination to review every file and gallery. We'd rather give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and assume the rules are being followed. However, when violations are reported to us, we must act on them.

As you've indicated there are violations of our Online Policy in the Ogre gallery, we will now need to review it.

(Caveat: This is the holiday season, which means we're quite busy at the moment. We will review the gallery as soon as possible.)
--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K.Y. Wong
Singapore
Gardens by the Bay
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PaulChapman wrote:
Trademark violation has nothing to do with the personal feelings of the individuals involved or the quality of the violating material. This is the legal system, and we are following it -- and protecting ourselves -- to the best of our IP lawyer's advice.


And what do lawyers know about marketing - which has EVERYTHING to do with personal feelings of individuals.

From the absolutely impersonal way that SJG has gone about this matter, the "marketing" message I get is that SJG is only interested in our money and not our feelings.

The problem lies with your outdated online policy. Even if you cannot change it for whatever reason, enforcement should be carried out in a kindly and respectful manner which would have generated positive vibes with your customer base.

Your heavy-handed approach towards this so-called IP infringement is hardly counter-balanced by any active feedback or "encouragement" for fan made material as stated in your own policy.

Still, your responses show an awareness and acknowledgement of your fans which is at least a step up from GW.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Slev Sleddeddan
United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester
flag msg tools
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
badge
Don't you open that trapdoor!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PaulChapman wrote:

Sorry, but we don't have time or inclination to review every file and gallery. We'd rather give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and assume the rules are being followed. However, when violations are reported to us, we must act on them.

As you've indicated there are violations of our Online Policy in the Ogre gallery, we will now need to review it.


Great example of how the users here are their own worst enemy...
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremiah
United States
Madison
WI
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PaulChapman wrote:
There is a difference between a photo of IP ("Here's a game in progress -- look at all the counters!") and a reproduceable image version of IP ("Here's a 700dpi scan of a sheet of counters").

But the difference between the two is highly subjective and constantly changing with technology... Again, this leaves it impossible to predict what fan made content (including photos) SJG is going to have removed.

PaulChapman wrote:
As you've indicated there are violations of our Online Policy in the Ogre gallery, we will now need to review it.

Good luck with the image removals. I'm sure the perception of SJG in the community will go through the roof. Oh yeah, and I'm sure those images have cost SJG a lot of sales (that's why you're so fervently following the letter of the law right? to protect future sales?)... much more than what will be lost with all the good "publicity" that will be generated...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Everts
United States
Foothill Ranch
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
"Nobody gets me. I'm the wind, baby!" - Tom Servo
badge
"Push the button, Frank!"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
K.Y. makes a good point. Online perception is powerful and the very active are frequently the people that champion games and game companies to their friends. Certainly I will never buy another GW game based on their actions and several of my gaming friends will also now be staying away from supporting them. After awhile it adds up.

I've been buying SJG since the 80's, their golden years of Car Wars, GURPS, and other great games. I've hesitated the last few years since the titles they've been making now haven't interested me as much. Games like Revolution! are a step back to the games I used to enjoy but heavy handed treatment of your fanbase doesn't give you any love. Sure, time is an issue but you have to have priorities. Is annoying the rabid fans a good move? Could you have worked with Kwanchai to make the game less infringing or maybe given him a "fan license" like some do to keep it alive? Jumping to cease & disest orders isn't a good first step.

jBullfrog wrote:
PaulChapman wrote:
As you've indicated there are violations of our Online Policy in the Ogre gallery, we will now need to review it.

Good luck with the image removals. I'm sure the perception of SJG in the community will go through the roof. Oh yeah, and I'm sure those images have cost SJG a lot of sales (that's why you're so fervently following the letter of the law right? to protect future sales?)... much more than what will be lost with all the good "publicity" that will be generated...

Also good point, look at all the negative publicity GW generated. They are huge and I expect think they can weather the storm. Not sure everyone can.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Stoker
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not to take this too far afield, but hey, Paul, since we have your attention...


Bring Back OGRE!!!!!!!OOOGGGGRRRREEEEEE!!!!!!![/size]


My first gaming purchase, one of my favorite games, I would love to see it catch everyone's attention again and give me opponents! I will pre-order on rumor! Go, Paul, make it so!


Now, back to copyright law.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremiah
United States
Madison
WI
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Slev wrote:
Great example of how the users here are their own worst enemy...

Yup, we souldn't rock the boat. We should just allow SJG to remove one users images so that others can freely post theirs even though they violate the same rules. Sounds just.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Rob
United States
Tampa
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
There is a difference between a photo of IP ("Here's a game in progress -- look at all the counters!") and a reproduceable image version of IP ("Here's a 700dpi scan of a sheet of counters").


And likewise no reason to complain over a low res scan useful only for accountability.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Slev Sleddeddan
United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester
flag msg tools
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
badge
Don't you open that trapdoor!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jBullfrog wrote:
Slev wrote:
Great example of how the users here are their own worst enemy...

Yup, we souldn't rock the boat. We should just allow SJG to remove one users images so that others can freely post theirs even though they violate the same rules. Sounds just.


Not what I'm saying at all.

There ware ways and means of dealing with this, none of which are being used. The nay-sayers have unrealistic (if idealistic) expectations as to how companies should deal with them, and have, in many cases, failed to read between the lines.

Companies like SJG understand the value of what we do in promoting their games. They're also big enough that they have to be seen to take enforcement action in certain cases and to put out a fair use guideline.

Their policy is about as fandom-friendly as is practicable without a change in law plus they communicate with us effectively, and the nay-sayers are still not happy. They want clear and concise guidelines of how they can get away with their, in actual fact, illegal production of games materials.

Obviously, SJG can't do this, the state of the law means that they HAVE to enforce and have removed any file, image or anything else miss-using their Trademark, even if they don't want to.

Since they don't want to, they have what appears to be a half-hearted enforcement, which actually gives fandom the leeway the nay-sayers are agitating for. The situation prevents SJG from actually saying this though.

Since people fail to understand this concept, they agitate in the wrong direction, and we see instances like this, where SJG has not bothered to check, so we can get away with it, but now they have to, so we can't.

If someone gets away with something illicit, you don't ask the enforcer why you don't get away with it too, unless you want to get that person in trouble too.
11 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremiah
United States
Madison
WI
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From earlier in this thread...
kwanchai wrote:
I just discovered that all the pictures that I had of my Ogre redesign stuff has been removed from my user gallery, without me knowing. I mean no big deal I guess, but...really?

kwanchai wrote:
..not all the Ogre images from my gallery, but all the images that had "Ogre" written somewhere in the image, I believe. The concept drawings and stuff are still there. Almost all the images linked to my Ogre redesign article have been removed.

These images weren't illegal.

Slev wrote:
There ware ways and means of dealing with this, none of which are being used.

Please elaborate.

Slev wrote:
The nay-sayers have unrealistic (if idealistic) expectations as to how companies should deal with them...

It is not unrealistic to be expected to be treated fairly.

Slev wrote:
They're also big enough that they have to be seen to take enforcement action in certain cases and to put out a fair use guideline.

And to not overstep their bounds.

Slev wrote:
Their policy is about as fandom-friendly as is practicable without a change in law...

This is arguable. As I mentioned above, their online policy, as stated, is too general to be used as a guideline for anything.

Slev wrote:
They want clear and concise guidelines of how they can get away with their, in actual fact, illegal production of games materials.
Clear and concise guidelines would be a start... but again, the images in Kwanchai's personal gallery don't constitue an illegal production of game materials any more than someone posting a picture of a license plate with the word "Ogre" on it.

Slev wrote:
... the state of the law means that they HAVE to enforce and have removed any file, image or anything else miss-using their Trademark, even if they don't want to.
This isn't about enforcing trademark. Kwanchai had images in his personal gallery removed because they had the word "Ogre" in it. SJG didn't have their hands tied behind their back.

Slev wrote:
Since people fail to understand this concept, they agitate in the wrong direction, and we see instances like this, where SJG has not bothered to check, so we can get away with it, but now they have to, so we can't.

We aren't "getting away" with anything, it is already within our rights.

Slev wrote:
If someone gets away with something illicit, you don't ask the enforcer why you don't get away with it too, unless you want to get that person in trouble too.
I'm not sure you intended the imagery here, but this is exactly the problem. SJG are acting like enforcers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcer. I would rather question their supposed authority then sit idly by.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
myles
United States
Mustang
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
KNEEL BEFORE ZOD !!!
badge
100 geek gold and this is all I get? :p
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not to derail the tar and feathering, but since Paul seems to be reading, I'd love to see Ogre available again.

Ideally, I'd like to see OGRE and GEV boxed in a deluxe set with a large fold out board, perhaps terrain hexes similar to Memoir 44 for different scenarios rather than a fixed terrain board. Of course, real linen finished cardboard would be my preference, rather the the cheaper feeling fake embossed, or plain glossy finish. Plastic minis would make it so over the top and an insta-buy from me. Failing plastic, please top quality graphics and nice components. I wouldn't even mind some revised, expanded, upated mechanics in the rules, as long as the original basic rules are also included for optional play either way.

I'd also buy the Kwanchi version, if you decide to ever license it. I loved the design he spun with it.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Chapman
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great_Mazinga wrote:
Ideally, I'd like to see OGRE and GEV boxed in a deluxe set with a large fold out board, perhaps terrain hexes similar to Memoir 44 for different scenarios rather than a fixed terrain board. Of course, real linen finished cardboard would be my preference, rather the the cheaper feeling fake embossed, or plain glossy finish. Plastic minis would make it so over the top and an insta-buy from me. Failing plastic, please top quality graphics and nice components. I wouldn't even mind some revised, expanded, upated mechanics in the rules, as long as the original basic rules are also included for optional play either way.


Yep, yep, and yep. Your desires are pretty close to our current print buying inquiries. The difficulty comes in finding a way to pack all that into a single box without either a $200 price tag or printing 50,000 copies.

But we're learning more with every project, and a badass version of Ogre remains on our development discussion lists.
--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bran mcmillin
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PaulChapman wrote:
Great_Mazinga wrote:
Ideally, I'd like to see OGRE and GEV boxed in a deluxe set with a large fold out board, perhaps terrain hexes similar to Memoir 44 for different scenarios rather than a fixed terrain board. Of course, real linen finished cardboard would be my preference, rather the the cheaper feeling fake embossed, or plain glossy finish. Plastic minis would make it so over the top and an insta-buy from me. Failing plastic, please top quality graphics and nice components. I wouldn't even mind some revised, expanded, upated mechanics in the rules, as long as the original basic rules are also included for optional play either way.


Yep, yep, and yep. Your desires are pretty close to our current print buying inquiries. The difficulty comes in finding a way to pack all that into a single box without either a $200 price tag or printing 50,000 copies.

But we're learning more with every project, and a badass version of Ogre remains on our development discussion lists.
--
Paul Chapman
Marketing Director
Steve Jackson Games
paul@sjgames.com
(512) 447-7866 x206


And counting pennies... NOW!... 1...2...3...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Slev Sleddeddan
United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester
flag msg tools
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
badge
Don't you open that trapdoor!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jBullfrog wrote:
From earlier in this thread...
kwanchai wrote:
I just discovered that all the pictures that I had of my Ogre redesign stuff has been removed from my user gallery, without me knowing. I mean no big deal I guess, but...really?

kwanchai wrote:
..not all the Ogre images from my gallery, but all the images that had "Ogre" written somewhere in the image, I believe. The concept drawings and stuff are still there. Almost all the images linked to my Ogre redesign article have been removed.

These images weren't illegal.

These images breached Trademark law, as they where used to describe or attribute a product that was not produced or endorsed by the copyright holder, but is in the same field in which that copyright is held. "Illegal" is a simple layman's term, there is probably a different term lawyers and such use, IANAL.

jBullfrog wrote:

Slev wrote:
There ware ways and means of dealing with this, none of which are being used.

Please elaborate.

I've not the time right now, I'll elaborate later.

jBullfrog wrote:

Slev wrote:
The nay-sayers have unrealistic (if idealistic) expectations as to how companies should deal with them...

It is not unrealistic to be expected to be treated fairly.

SJG never had to say anything.
They explained WHY they had to do what they did, which is the polite thing to do.

jBullfrog wrote:

Slev wrote:
They're also big enough that they have to be seen to take enforcement action in certain cases and to put out a fair use guideline.

And to not overstep their bounds.

See my point above.

jBullfrog wrote:

Slev wrote:
Their policy is about as fandom-friendly as is practicable without a change in law...

This is arguable. As I mentioned above, their online policy, as stated, is too general to be used as a guideline for anything.

This is covered in my point below.

jBullfrog wrote:

Slev wrote:
They want clear and concise guidelines of how they can get away with their, in actual fact, illegal production of games materials.
Clear and concise guidelines would be a start... but again, the images in Kwanchai's personal gallery don't constitue an illegal production of game materials any more than someone posting a picture of a license plate with the word "Ogre" on it.

I explained above how this beaches copyright law. Further, clear and concise guidelines are exactly what we DON'T want. They would prevent us from doing many of the things we do.

These companies deliberately give us vague rules so that we can stretch them, and this still gives them the legal leeway they need to bring in enforcement if things go too far, or are outright abused.

jBullfrog wrote:

Slev wrote:
... the state of the law means that they HAVE to enforce and have removed any file, image or anything else miss-using their Trademark, even if they don't want to.
This isn't about enforcing trademark. Kwanchai had images in his personal gallery removed because they had the word "Ogre" in it. SJG didn't have their hands tied behind their back.

Again, see my first point.

jBullfrog wrote:

Slev wrote:
Since people fail to understand this concept, they agitate in the wrong direction, and we see instances like this, where SJG has not bothered to check, so we can get away with it, but now they have to, so we can't.

We aren't "getting away" with anything, it is already within our rights.

This kind of argument is similarly by many similar aspects of fandom. Fair use provisions are generally not rights but concessions, and you do not have the right to use someone else's copyright material (files using art from the original game, rules texts, etc) or Trademarks (often used to make files look authentic with the original game).

jBullfrog wrote:

Slev wrote:
If someone gets away with something illicit, you don't ask the enforcer why you don't get away with it too, unless you want to get that person in trouble too.
I'm not sure you intended the imagery here, but this is exactly the problem. SJG are acting like enforcers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcer. I would rather question their supposed authority then sit idly by.

Questioning the authority is one thing, but you compartmentalise the question so as not to impinge on other aspects needlessly. Doing otherwise complicate the matter and drags the whole system down.


I'm going to write a longer post about this and will link here when I do.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seth Owen
United States
Norwich
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think a badass edition of Ogre might very well sell 50,000 copies, given the success of badass editions of some other recent games with plastic minis. I'll admit that a $200 price tag would be a bad idea.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Slev Sleddeddan
United Kingdom
Victoria Park
Manchester
flag msg tools
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
badge
Don't you open that trapdoor!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wargamer55 wrote:
I think a badass edition of Ogre might very well sell 50,000 copies, given the success of badass editions of some other recent games with plastic minis. I'll admit that a $200 price tag would be a bad idea.



Not for me, but that's only because the exchange rate is quite good right now

Still, watching & waiting to replace my (very) old-school version...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
While I am not sure I agree with the METHOD used to protect SJG IP in this case, I certainly understand the reason and I appreciate Paul's participation in this thread.

As has been mentioned, I would think Kwanchi's artwork would be pretty easy to 'add' to the SJG brand (a pdf for sale in the SJG store, hint hint). I know I would most likely buy a copy (unless overpriced, etc.). I also hope to see this great game (along with GEV) back in print.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gene Dickens
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Company's PnP prices are reasonable.

I still wonder why He and the Company chose to "pick" on Mr K. And yes, I still say there is a personal motivation there somehow. Slev, maybe your right, maybe He and the Company decided to "Punish" Mr K. Why, I can only speculate.

I've got to say, many of you are making excellent arguments, better than I could do.

If THE GAME were to return (har!), minatures would be nice. But, what I would like to see though is a larger format. Bigger counters, bigger hexes, Mark X, etc. My fingers suck at thin 1/2 inch counters anymore.

Gene
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Rob
United States
Tampa
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
All quibbling aside, I think SJG is really missing the boat by not co-opting Kwanchai's redesign. For a pittance they could obtain a ready to print retro-redesign that they could sell to an even larger audience.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leo Zappa
United States
Aliquippa
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I see a fundamental difference in the GW and SJG situations. In the GW situation we had a number of files that were useful adjuncts to the games in question, but they themselves were not the games. The files tended to be player aid cards, variant rules, scenarios, and the like. One could access these files for Space Hulk and other GW games to enhance their gameplay, but these files could not replace the games themselves, so in large part, there was no direct threat to GW sales (there are other reasons to pull files besides direct competition, but I'm just focusing on lost sales for the moment, since that is generally what is most important to any company).

The Ogre situation is different, because the files constituted the game itself. One could access those files and if they choose to, recreate the Ogre game, without SJG getting one cent from the deal. The existence of these files constituted a direct threat to dilute future sales of an official SJG version of Ogre, which SJG has said is in their plans. In this case, I can't blame SJG for doing what they did - these files would plainly compete with SJG's own product.

Now, I like what some have said here - it might be a great business idea for SJG to coopt K's version and publish it themselves. As his work is derivative, SJG wouldn't owe K anything, though they could credit him in the rules with the reimaging, and it would get a professional version of the game out to the market much faster than SJG's own effort. For K's part, he gets some recognition for his work, and possibly a jump start on designing his own games.

At the end of the day, I just don't see a useful connection between the GW and SJG-Ogre situations.
10 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.