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Subject: Kwanchai's Ogre rss

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Gene Dickens
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You got a Point there Leo. OK duh, why didn't someone say this directly before, or did I miss it? That is, that the Company would not make any money on K's "game". And, that anyone could download K's "game", and cobble together a copy of the GAME.

Him and the Company, why didn't you say this in the first place. Why did you the tack that this was simply a copyright violation. THINK MAN THINK!

At this time, I can agree, do to the possible loss of income to SJG, that K's "game" should have been removed from BGG. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE METHODOLOGY. Mr K should have been warned about the preceived problem, and then given the chance to remove the material himself before SJG acted. WAS THIS DONE! If it wasn't, then this makes SJG look like an OGRE.

Oh yeah, none of the rest of you give me a rasher, none of you like having money taken away from you either.

Finally, Leo is right. The Company should co-opt Mr K's "game". To deny it from the market would be STUPID, as it is a great artistic endevor. Of course, I think the Company has it's collective head in a very dark and smelly place.

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Could do what Tom Jolly did for Wiz-War, give fan permission for a version. Now that Wiz-War is going to be reprinted in 2011 will be interesting to see if the fan version has to be pulled.

But then there's also the case with Space Junkyard & Zombie in my Pocket where the publisher allowed the PNP version to stay and are selling a fancy published edition.

As I said before, if you give permisison (with appropriate copyright info) then you are still protected. SJG should consider this marketing, not infringing. If they are indeed making a fancy edition then this version gives fans something to try out while waiting. If all they care about is their rights then there are ways to deal with that. Working with your fans can be both profitable and great free marketing.
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Andrew Walters
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Just a note regarding permission: SJ Games has gone to the trouble and expense of giving blanket permission for certain types of fan activity, along with a clear explanation of what you can and can't do and why. I always thought this was nice of them, not only for the clarity, but for permission in advance, within the limits of what they can do and still expect to make any money. (This is incidentally one of the better explanations of copyright out there.)

http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html

Andrew
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Rob Rob
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Quote:
SJ Games has gone to the trouble and expense of giving blanket permission for certain types of fan activity


True. While they had certain obligatory legal hoops for me to jump through, SJG permitted me to make several CyberBoard gameboxes for their products.
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Kwanchai Moriya
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Just a little announcement.
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ScottE wrote:
Could do what Tom Jolly did for Wiz-War, give fan permission for a version. Now that Wiz-War is going to be reprinted in 2011 will be interesting to see if the fan version has to be pulled.


On this...
Making a "fan" version of wizwar costs more than buying it.

In fact, to make "CthulRa", it is much cheaper (and much less time consuming) (and the result is higher quality) to buy an extra copy of Ra, and mount the graphics on the original game pieces.

Just buying appropriate mat board to mount on was going to cost $30 before I even got started.

I'm assuming at .20 per wooden block plus printing costs, that K's version of Ogre is likely to be considerably more expensive than SJ's version of Ogre. And my time is worth well over $30 per hour. I happily pay for things all the time because I have more money than time. If I make something like CthulRa, it's because it's so cool I'm willing to put time in, or it's because I want something that looks special for a convention or gaming group.

Publishers get really nice breaks on printing costs. They can sell, at a profit (and with a profit for the middle man) cheaper than you can make a decent copy.

Phil & Kasha Foglio's "Girl Genius" comic is completely available on the web. And yet, there is no way I can approach their $22 per copy price for printed books. Similarly for "Questionable Content" who is bringing out a collection soon.

I still don't feel that SJ was unreasonable in this case and I'm really impressed with the way they are maintaining open and positive communication with the customer base. We don't have to agree on everything to maintain a positive relationship.

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GeneGeek7 wrote:
I've decided not to have a Viking funeral, for now. Steve Jackson Games makes good games, and I hate to burn up Afwul Green Things, et.al. What ticks me off the most though, is that such a creative and innovative company would stoop to such destructive, legalistic, and self-centered bullying no matter hwo personal it is. I have to agree with many of the posts above, why didn't you contact Mr. Kwanchai before you sicked the lawyers on him.

Roughly ten years ago I wrote a Java version of Ogre in my spare time, based on the old Apple II version as well as a unix version, and following some AI strategy that was documented in the Apple version (which encouraged writing an AI). I did this game for my own fun and passion, and also because SJG said in a FAQ that they might be interested in it.

I did NOT post my game on the web for all to download. Instead, I contacted Steve Jackson himself, sending him a copy of my finished product.

I got a reply from him that was not threatening or harsh. He thanked me for contacting him, and we discussed limitations of a Java version (e.g., no copy protection). He mentioned he had a company of employees whose paychecks would not be helped by having a version of the Ogre rules that could easily be passed around without being paid for.

That reasoning seemed very reasonable to me, and I think it applies today to Kwanchai's re-design.
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fuhrmanator wrote:
That reasoning seemed very reasonable to me, and I think it applies today to Kwanchai's re-design.


Kwanchai's redesign probably would have passed muster if all he did was post the redesigned counters and map.

However, I believe the issue was posting the rules VERBATIM which is a copyright violation. Additionally, I believe there was some issue with the cover which included the word "Ogre" and was very similar to the cover of Squad Leader.

I would guess that SJG came down on him about the rules/use of Ogre and he just decided to get rid of everything.

Again, not facts but my memory of the event.
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Andrew Walters
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Your memory is correct. SJ Games was admirably silent about the map and counters, but they felt they had to speak up about the Ogre trademark, so say nothing of posting the rules. Kwanchai is obviously a brilliant artist, if he had just left "Ogre" off the map and let people download the rules for free from SJ Games we'd still have that material available.

Andrew
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Jonan Jello
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This looks similar to Kwanchi's Ogre...


On the Victory Point Games website there are images of MARS: Bio Invasion a game by Sean Young.
MARS reminds me of Kwanchi's version of Ogre. It appears to be in playtesting, but I'm not sure if it will be a VPG release. http://victorypointgames.com/articleDetail.php?article_ID=14...

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Rob Rob
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Ouch, I see a lawsuit in someone's future... ninja
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Andrew Walters
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Nope.

Doesn't use any SJ Games art or text, doesn't say "Ogre" on it, there's no infringement.

On top of that, the values for everything re different. This is an entirely different game. The only commonalities are that they are both scifi wargames with hexes.

Andrew
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Jonan Jello
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Andrew do you know if the game has solitaire play?
If VPG releases it, it'll be a must-buy for me.
 
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Rob Rob
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Quote:
Doesn't use any SJ Games art or text, doesn't say "Ogre" on it, there's no infringement.

I didn't say they'd win the lawsuit.laugh
 
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Andrew Walters
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I don't know anything about the VP Games game. I know lots about Ogre.

Andrew
 
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Seth Owen
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Robrob wrote:
Quote:
Doesn't use any SJ Games art or text, doesn't say "Ogre" on it, there's no infringement.

I didn't say they'd win the lawsuit.laugh


I though Steve Jackson made it clear that it was Kwanchi's use of the Ogre name that was the tipping point. I think that if he'd been more discreet SJG would have let it go.

While this game has some obvious similarities, I don't think it's even close to an infringement because there seem to be some clear and obvious differences. I don't get the sense that SJG is as quick on the trigger as GW and I doubt very much whether they'd sue over something like this, especially given the low likelihood of success and the minimal monetary reward. Again, with Kwanchai's Ogre it wasn't just about the money.
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Sean Young
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Hex_Enduction_Hour wrote:


On the Victory Point Games website there are images of MARS: Bio Invasion a game by Sean Young.
MARS reminds me of Kwanchi's version of Ogre. It appears to be in playtesting, but I'm not sure if it will be a VPG release. http://victorypointgames.com/articleDetail.php?article_ID=14...



The pics from above is from a game I am designing right now for VPG called MARS: Bio Invasion. Although I love OGRE, this game has nothing to do with either Kwanchai's cool version or the beloved SJG one. This game was certainly not designed in a vacuum, I've played both OGRE and Battletech, and it plays differently than both. MARS is about a very different IP universe than either of those games, mostly pitting robot pilots vs. giant Bio monsters (Counters not shown). In fact, I didn't even know Kwanchai's game existed until a couple days ago, a buddy of mine sent me this link.

MARS will be in playtesting, hopefully very soon, just finished the first draft of the Rules literally yesterday.

And yes, I hope to have some solitaire missions as well as the regular 2 player game.
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Jonan Jello
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Sean3Dguy wrote:


MARS will be in playtesting, hopefully very soon, just finished the first draft of the Rules literally yesterday.

And yes, I hope to have some solitaire missions as well as the regular 2 player game.


Then you most likely will have an instant-buy from me.
MARS looks really exciting and fresh for VPG's line of games.
 
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Rob Rob
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Hex_Enduction_Hour wrote:
Sean3Dguy wrote:


MARS will be in playtesting, hopefully very soon, just finished the first draft of the Rules literally yesterday.

And yes, I hope to have some solitaire missions as well as the regular 2 player game.


Then you most likely will have an instant-buy from me.
MARS looks really exciting and fresh for VPG's line of games.

By not making use of the redesign coupled with not giving fans what they wanted to buy in the first place (updated graphics and high/er quality), SJG pretty much ensured "knock-off" games which will only siphon off the demand for their eventual reprint.

My prediction: Even though OGRE was SJG flagship wargame, AGTfOS sales will dwarf OGRE sales.
 
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Andrew Walters
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My prediction: all other things being anywhere close to equal the sales of any $25 game will dwarf the sales of a $100 game, unless Games Workshop is involved, in which case the opposite rule applies.

Andrew
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andreww wrote:

My prediction: all other things being anywhere close to equal the sales of any $25 game will dwarf the sales of a $100 game, unless Games Workshop is involved, in which case the opposite rule applies.

Andrew


Agreed, and I will add that no matter what SJ does with Ogre, someone on the Internet will complain about it as if SJ ran over their dog with a Mk V.
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Andrew Walters
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I'm fully sympathetic with everyone, from those who want the original in $3 format to those who want minis or painted plastic figs. But the hostility is sometimes a little surprising.

Andrew
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andreww wrote:

I'm fully sympathetic with everyone, from those who want the original in $3 format to those who want minis or painted plastic figs. But the hostility is sometimes a little surprising.

Andrew


Agreed. The passion of us Ogre fans is wonderful, until it's not.
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Robrob wrote:

By not making use of the redesign coupled with not giving fans what they wanted to buy in the first place (updated graphics and high/er quality), SJG pretty much ensured "knock-off" games which will only siphon off the demand for their eventual reprint.


Actually, 6th edtion does do what players said they wanted, to whit:
Modern/updated graphics
High/er quality play-pieces
All the expansions & rules bundled in
Compatibility with Ogre Minis.

While that is what players said they wanted, many are not happy for various reasons. The problem is that customers are notoriously bad at expressing their wants.
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Slev wrote:
While that is what players said they wanted, many are not happy for various reasons. The problem is that customers are notoriously bad at expressing their wants.

That has got to be the quote of the year. One thing I've learned in all the years of working on video games is the fans don't really know what they want. When we try to give them what they say they want, they come back and complain about something else!

As for the 6th edition, its basically what I really wanted. A super fancy edition with everything. Sure, I'd like a few changes here or there but its pretty cool and I'll definitely get it. I still have my nice wood block version of Kwanchai's version. And yes, it won't stop me from buying 6th edition.
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