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Subject: Fun with Reactions rss

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Branko K.
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A while ago I started a discussion about "Interrupt" cards - basically Reaction cards that do not react on the Attacks, but rather on specific events that happen during other player's turns. The idea was to enhance the interactivity of the game without using the Attacks as a sole crutch.

Here are four cards that demonstrate how this could work:

(edit: these are the "new" cards, which are tweaked based on suggestions and recommendations in the following posts. For the originals check out the Dominion gallery)





Further explanations:

Village Idiot: Works on any type of Village, not just the Village kingdom card. So far there are four types of Villages (counting the expansions): Village, Mining Village, Native Village and Fishing Village. Village Idiot can also be revealed when another player plays a Village Idiot (since it has the word "Village" in the title). If the interrupted player had no bonus actions left, he gets one bonus Action as a result of the reveal.

Border Guard: The card may only be revealed when a player whose current turn is trashes his own cards. For instance, you may not use it to get cards that were stolen by the Thief or Pirate Ship, exchanged with Swindler or destroyed with Saboteur.

Drought: The fourth action card gets resolved, but the action chain ends immediately. The player whose Action phase was interrupted my freely proceed with his Buy phase. Duration cards are only considered as "played" on their first turn, and do not count towards the "fourth" action if they are in their "duration" phase.

Tax Collector: Works only in the Buy phase. Treasure gained any other way cannot be taxed. If the Treasure pile is empty, the first Tax Collector will not be able to gain the Treasure. If multiple Tax Collectors are revealed, they are resolved starting with the player to the left of the active player. A player can reveal more then one Tax Collector, if he wishes so. Interrupted player gains as many Treasures (costing three less than the original) as there are Tax Collectors revealed, and each Tax Collector provides the original Treasure card to the interrupting player unless the supply is exhausted.



As for the issue of timing of these cards, it is implied that the players who interrupt always have priority, that is the player whose turn it is cannot play "quickly" in the hopes of not giving other players a chance to react. For example, if you look at the Village Idiot card, if this card is in the set, the player whose turn it is cannot "quickly" place the Village card and continue playing hoping that the Idiot will not nullify his Village; if the Idiot is in play, every Village can always be interrupted and the active player must play with that fact in mind. Because of the timing issues (and similar to the "regular" Dominion), it is expected that each particular game will not contain too many Reaction cards.

Also, race conditions are disencouraged. Every player can reveal the Reaction if the pre-requisites are met, and Reactions are resolved starting from the left. The usual rule of "you must do all you can" applies.

Disclaimer: These cards have not been playtested (yet have been somewhat modified from their original versions). If anyone actually wants to invest time and effort to test these out, I'd be very happy to hear how it went; however I am content with general comments and trashings too.


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Jan Bazynski
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At first glance only the village idiot seems too powerful for me. I would either get rid of the upper option or eliminate the "draw two cards" in the reaction option. Now if you get to use the reaction part you start your turn with 6 cards and still have an action which is definitely too powerful in my eyes.

The rest looks nice, but yes, they surely would need to be tested

e: oh, and the discarded village should not be treated as playing an action - if the player who played it has other actions on his hand he should be able to play them.
 
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Ben Bateson
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Quote:
You may show and dicard this card...


That is either a very intellectual joke or a very embarrassing typing error.
 
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Branko K.
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bazyn wrote:
At first glance only the village idiot seems too powerful for me. I would either get rid of the upper option or eliminate the "draw two cards" in the reaction option. Now if you get to use the reaction part you start your turn with 6 cards and still have an action which is definitely too powerful in my eyes.

The rest looks nice, but yes, they surely would need to be tested

e: oh, and the discarded village should not be treated as playing an action - if the player who played it has other actions on his hand he should be able to play them.


Yes, I guess Idiot is too powerful at the cost of 2, and would probably result in simply Villages being ignored. However, if I lose the "action" part, then the card is useless unless any Villages are in the set. I guess I could agree on the fact that perhaps it's not fair for an active player to gets his Action used up... however I thought the Idiot would be too weak otherwise, since his Reaction is basically a one-shot thing. The previous 'version' of it wasn't discarded and simply took away all the Action bonuses active player had leaving him with only one additional Action - but I couldn't find a way to word this easily.

Btw, the Village Idiot is more of a joke on people whose turns are basically a pointless neverending stream of Villages, as in "ok, you've had your fun, that's enough now".

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Jeff Wolfe
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Suggestions:

All cards: The official rules define the word "reveal." Use that word instead of "show."

Village Idiot: Instead of "type of Village," use "card with the word Village in its title." That way, you don't need a list to clarify which cards are affected. Plus, then Village Idiot can react to other Village Idiots, making it always useful in a set.

Drought: Use the word "plays" instead of "places."

Drought: "That player's Action phase ends after resolving the card." Because that's what your FAQ says.

Drought: Duration cards are only considered to be played on the turn in which they are actually moved from the player's hand to the play area, so immediate use of Drought on a subsequent turn doesn't make sense. The effect of Duration cards is "Do this now and this other thing in the future." Just because "in the future" arrives doesn't mean the card is played again.

Tax Collector: Your FAQ means that it doesn't work on cards bought with Black Market. Instead of excluding Black Market (and other potential similar cards), say the Reaction works only on cards that the player Buys, not ones that he gains another way. That's consistent with the text of the card and what appears to be your intent.

Tax Collector: Specify who decides what other Treasure card is gained by the other player.

I have no opinion on what the cards actually do.
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Branko K.
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Good suggestions, thanks.

I'll wait for some possible further comments and then rework the cards.
 
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Drew Spencer
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They all seem like workable cards to me. This is a pretty radical change, so it's really hard to know how well they would work without playtesting them. I'd say incorporate all of Jeff Wolfe's comments (above) and print up a set.
 
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Chris Hawks
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I'm not sure I like any of these cards, but I do love the idea of Reactions that aren't necessarily Attack-based.
 
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Jan Bazynski
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Maybe they should be action-reaction-attack so the player whose turn it is could protect himself with a moat lighthouse or any other future protective cards?
 
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Mark McEvoy
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baba44713 wrote:
As for the issue of timing of these cards, it is implied that the players who interrupt always have priority, that is the player whose turn it is cannot play "quickly" in the hopes of not giving other players a chance to react.


But what about when multiple players wish to react? How to resolve that timing issue?

Village Idiots should safely stack. Everyone can pile-on a Village player and claim their two cards. The extra nullification-of-the-village shouldn't matter.

Since Droughts don't discard they're of limited race-condition concern. All else being equal you'd rather someone else show theirs so you don't have to show yours... but it's no big deal.

Tax Collector and Border Guard are real race conditions, though. What if two people with to play Tax Collector on the same Gold purchase? Does one get the Gold, one get a Silver, and the original get a Bronze? How do you resolve this?

Same question for Border Guard. Only one person gets the priority to scavenge the new trash first.
 
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R. H.
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These are really cool. And the art looks great! Nice
 
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Barak Tutterrow
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Awesome looking cards and awesome concept. If they were properly balanced, they would make for an interesting game.
 
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Branko K.
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thatmarkguy wrote:

Tax Collector and Border Guard are real race conditions, though. What if two people with to play Tax Collector on the same Gold purchase? Does one get the Gold, one get a Silver, and the original get a Bronze? How do you resolve this?

Same question for Border Guard. Only one person gets the priority to scavenge the new trash first.


Race conditions are a bad thing, and I agree cards should be designed in such a way so they do not exist at all.

One easy fix is to simply eliminate race by providing additional cards from the supply to eligible players, with the already used rule of players to the left getting precedence if the supplies are limited. This means that two Tax Collectors act the same way as one Tax Collector when the interrupting players are concerned - e.g. both interrupting players get a Gold - and the interrupted player gains two Silvers. If the Gold stack runs out, the second Tax Collector does not provide Gold, but still provides a Silver to the interrupted player.

Border Guard could turn out to be tricky, though, because of the optional gaining instead of a straight bonus, so perhaps a better fix is to forget the scavenge part and simply force the trashing player to gain all those cards back. The other solution is to let the player to the left get his first pick, then the second etc. with the interrupted player getting back all the cards that were not chosen.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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bazyn wrote:
Maybe they should be action-reaction-attack so the player whose turn it is could protect himself with a moat lighthouse or any other future protective cards?


Yeah, these are all reactions that are attacks. Every single one of them is bad for the person whose turn it is. I'd have far less problem if they were reactions that were not attacks themselves (so for example the Village Idiot card just lets you get +1 card whenever someone plays a Village or something, not that it actually adversely affects their turn).

There may be a place for reactions that are also attacks, but I don't know if that's really the kind of direction I'd want to go...
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Joseph
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baba44713 wrote:

Drought: The fourth action card gets resolved, but the action chain ends immediately. The player whose Action phase was interrupted my freely proceed with his Buy phase. Duration cards are considered as actions that are played, so if a player has four Duration cards at the start of his turn he may immediately get interrupted.





I see where you are with this, but the Durations do not count as actions on the 2ND turn. (See Conspirator)
 
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Marco
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Excellent Idea, Branko!!! I think this would make the game more interesting and more interactive.

I am also with Jospeph Cochran in that I think that not all reactions should be attacks. Gaining the same treasure card as your opponent just bought may be rewarding enough!
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Greg Jones
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Nice. I particularly like the Border Guard. Could be some interesting decisions if it instead said you must take one of the trashed cards. The Chapel player will try to trash 3 Coppers and an Estate. You can take 1 Copper, setting yourself back a little, but stopping their Chapel player's big play.
 
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Greg Jones
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It would actually be really cool if the Border Guard makes you put the cards back on the top of your deck. As is, I think I'd still buy Chapel vs. the Border Guard. About 1/2 times, I'll probably get lucky and the Border Guard doesn't catch me. Eventually I'll get rid of my weak cards.

However, if the Border Guard makes you put cards back on the top of your deck, then there is an intimidation factor, and you might be deterred from trashing cards even in cases where there isn't a Border Guard in hand.
 
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Branko K.
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MarcoGreen wrote:
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Excellent Idea, Branko!!! I think this would make the game more interesting and more interactive.

I am also with Jospeph Cochran in that I think that not all reactions should be attacks. Gaining the same treasure card as your opponent just bought may be rewarding enough!


Yes, they are all attack-y.. but I was trying to sell the concept, not the actual cards. They should be regarded more as examples as how this could work and less as actual cards one should immediately print and test (at least in their current form).

The reason why I made all three like this is because otherwise the "interaction" would still be a bit muted. For instance, a Reaction card that would allow you to draw a card whenever some other player plays a certain Kingdom card would merely be a reverse "Council Room", and the "interrupted" player could still conceivably play without paying attention to other players and their shenanigans. My idea was for the active player to be forced to make some tactical decisions based on present Reaction cards, which I guess is only possible if the Reaction cards are somewhat aggressive in nature. But again, I see nothing wrong with non-attack Reactions, because the fact that other players get to do something off their turns is still a significant jump in interaction then simply watching and waiting for one's turn.
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Werner Bär
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baba44713 wrote:
My idea was for the active player to be forced to make some tactical decisions based on present Reaction cards, which I guess is only possible if the Reaction cards are somewhat aggressive in nature.

Like "Don't buy a thief if a border guard is in the set"?
 
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Branko K.
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I have changed the displayed cards following the recommendations and suggestions from this thread. Sorry if it creates some confusion due to sarcastic remarks, jokes, and comments not being applicable anymore.
 
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Ben Bateson
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Sarcastic? Moi? cool
 
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Greg Jones
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baba44713 wrote:
My idea was for the active player to be forced to make some tactical decisions based on present Reaction cards, which I guess is only possible if the Reaction cards are somewhat aggressive in nature.


Not really. I sometimes don't play a Council Room because of the card it will give my opponents. But you're right. As far as selling it, given how a lot of people thought Race for the Galaxy didn't have interaction, a lot people might not "get it" if the interactions weren't aggressive.
 
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Werner Bär
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baba44713 wrote:
I have changed the displayed cards following the recommendations and suggestions from this thread.

The new wording of the border guard is very strange: "That player gains those cards back."
There are a number of cases where the active player trashes cards from other players (thief, saboteur, swindler). How does he get the trashed cards "back"?
 
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Branko K.
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Werbaer wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
I have changed the displayed cards following the recommendations and suggestions from this thread.

The new wording of the border guard is very strange: "That player gains those cards back."
There are a number of cases where the active player trashes cards from other players (thief, saboteur, swindler). How does he get the trashed cards "back"?


It's in the explanation. It should have "from his hand" added to the text after "one or more cards". I noticed it right after I uploaded the pic but didn't have time to fix it, so I left it as is. "Back" should imply that the cards are his own, kinda.

Edit: The "correct" version of the card will be up tomorrow, because right now I don't have the master of it on me. So if someone is, like, really eager to print it out, wait a bit..
 
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