Recommend
13 
 Thumb up
 Hide
74 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Cosmic Encounter» Forums » Variants

Subject: Classic Alien Power Revision Workshop rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jack Reda
United States
Herndon
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Guess the games in my uberbadge!
badge
My favorite game is Cosmic Encounter.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm going to playtest the Diplomat vRB as is for now, and get some additional feedback from others in the group. Seeing it in action is really the only way to determine its value. It will be easy to recommend the changes if needed, once any weaknesses or serious drawbacks are felt.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've upgraded the Diplomat mockups to 1.1. Made the alien red and incorporated Jack's clarifications into the flare.

EDIT: Diplomat 1.1 now superseded by 1.2.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Burns
United States
Troy
MI
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks Jack, can't wait to see the results.

I also want to chip in regarding Masochist... I completely agree with what you regarding engineering new powers vis-a-vis one single existing power. I don't really think Diplomat needs to be engineered against Masochist. As you point out, Diplomat is optional, and can simply choose not to intervene with Masochist as a main player, while Cudgel (and other token loss powers) is mandatory. And while Masochist has the upper hand in Diplomat's interfering, how much of an upper hand is it? From what I've seen, Masochist has a hard time getting to 20 tokens lost.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darth Thulhu?
Mexico
Sonora
flag msg tools
|)@r+# +#¿£#¿
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Played in a game with Diplomat once tonight (mostly Worm testing, which I'll cover elsewhere). One thing tonight's Diplomat was able to boost their deals with was gathering Negotiates. Generally a win-win for the players involved.

Bill Martinson wrote:
do we think Rob's Diplomat was good enough as-is, or should we keep looking for the most elegant boost we can find that keeps it as close as possible to the original?


Still feeling a need for some kind of oomph ... at the start of the game everyone was happy to deal, but later on Diplomat had difficulty persuading people, and Worm was blase about losing tokens if they got to take two other people down with them (Worm was also rather irked at getting intervened on when it could otherwise have cone-shifted for victory to strip their foe of a foreign colony. They wouldn't agree to anything that didn't impose a colony discrepancy.)

To encourage Diplomat to take the risk, to avoid distorting the incentives of dealing opponents, and to elegantly minimize the verbiage on the card, I'd propose trimming your first proposal to:

"If a deal is not made, you each lose 3 ships to the warp. However, if you were willing to deal and one of the other players was not, then You may choose one player to ignore this penalty."

This preserves maximum flexibility, and lets Diplomat run her briefcases and protocol meetings around without worry. And it totally lives up to that flavor text ... people are gonna be sweating the appearance of Diplomatic Intervention.

Bill Martinson wrote:
I have to admit I'm still a little droolish at the thought of getting to snag a good encounter card. However, as the person who proposd that idea I'm probably the one least able to be objective about it, so I'd love to hear some other opinions.


It's a fun idea, but very wordy and elaborate as a fail-to-deal condition. On a thematic level, I'm not sure how intervening U.N. liaisons get superweapons out of their intervention.

It works as its own power: When you are not a main player, after the encounter is resolved, you may use your power to discard a Negotiate to acquire one card played into that encounter. (Whether that's a Morph or a Reinforcement or a Kicker or an Artifact or whatever ... maximum flexibility, and nothing preventing multiple uses with multiple Negotiates.) More powerful as an acquisition ability than Vulch and Filch and Clone, thus necessitating a limit on use through the cost - as a pragmatic matter, a part-Philanthropist in the ability to thin out the weak stuff, and a part-CloneFilchVulch in picking up a couple of high-end cards in the game's course. Scrounge? Detritus? Scrapper?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Reda
United States
Herndon
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Guess the games in my uberbadge!
badge
My favorite game is Cosmic Encounter.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The problem I have with "you may allow one player to not lose ships" is that it feels like it's worded simply to deal with Masochist. There's really no other great reason to not have the power simply say "if all three of you fail to deal, you don't lose your ships, but they do" which I think is kind of unbalanced. I think a simple and elegant version is the crooked deal formula.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darth Thulhu?
Mexico
Sonora
flag msg tools
|)@r+# +#¿£#¿
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
The Warp wrote:
"if all three of you fail to deal, you don't lose your ships, but they do" which I think is kind of unbalanced.


My reason for not finding that unbalanced is that it preserves some of the incentives for the opponents relative to normal, 2-way deals.

On a 2-way, each opponent has to weigh "take 3 ships down with me, but lose 3 ships" vs. "get something that helps me while also helping one opponent".

For Diplomat, there's already one huge deviation in that balance: "get something that helps me while also benefitting *two* of my opponents". That encourages people to hold out for something really solid for themselves before they'll agree. Especially since, unreconstructed, there's another distorted incentive on the other side of the choice: "take *6* ships down with me, but lose 3 ships".

Letting the Diplomat not risk ships on a failed three-way returns that incentive back to "take 3 ships down with me, but lose 3 ships", making deal-hosing not greatly more likely than normal. It makes the Diplomat's power effectively: "Weed a Negotiate out of your hand and either: gain a benefit while two opponents gain a benefit *or* send 6 enemy ships to the warp." The crooked deal variant tweaks the last part of that to "*or* send 8 enemy ships to the warp at the cost of 2 of your own" ... not a huge difference to me.

The Warp wrote:
I think a simple and elegant version is the crooked deal formula.


That's a modest shift in the balance for a reluctant holdout. They go from hosing 2 enemy ships at the cost of 1 of their own (6-for-3) to hosing 1.5 per 1 of their own (6-for-4). That's still 50% more efficient than the 1-for-1 on a normal failed deal, but it's no longer a full 100% more effective.

I could embrace that increase in opponent hosing efficacy on 3-way deals if there were a balancing decrease in opponent hosing efficacy on 2-way negotiations, and/or a boost to Diplomat's compensation on a unilateral Negotiate play. Interestingly, the same crooked deal math would exactly reduce the hosing efficiency on failed 2-way deals from 1-for-1 by ... 50%, to .5-for-1 on a 2-for-4 trade.

Giving the Diplomat such a modest secondary "always on" power, enhancing their outcomes on all Negotiates they play, would also help the Diplomat player not feel completely useless if good 3-way deal options don't seem likely, whether because of specific opposing powers or because of bad system dynamics.

Were the crooked deal formula made universal across all Diplomat negotiations, not just barging-in 3-way deals, the write-up would look something like:

Diplomat
Negotiates Aggressively
Red

You have the power to Negotiate. On a failed deal, you lose 2 ships to the warp and your opponents lose 4 ships.

When you are not a main player and one or more attack cards are revealed in an encounter, you may use this power to play a negotiate card. The revealed cards are discarded, and the two main players and you have 2 minutes to reach a three-way deal. No player may gain more than is allowed in the rules for making a deal. If one of you refuses, you each suffer the consequences of a failed deal.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As I was trying to fall asleep last night, I stumbled upon a little tweak that I believe just might do all of the following:

* Gives Diplomat that extra bit of "oomph" the Darth is looking for.
* Makes the power more of "a foreboding presence held in awe by others" and more fully lets "the Diplomats negotiate their terms".
* Softens the sting of Masochist without the problem Jack points out (text obviously written to one particular other power).
* Avoids trampling on the elegance of Rob's original rewrite.

For your consideration:

Diplomat
Can Negotiate 3-Way Deals

You have the power to Negotiate. When you are not a main player and one or more attack cards are revealed in an encounter, you may use this power to play a negotiate card. The revealed cards are discarded, and the two main players and you have 2 minutes to attempt to deal. No player may gain more than is allowed in the rules for making a deal. You may make a 2-way deal with one of the main players, or a 3-way deal with both of them. Each player who is not a part of the deal loses 3 ships to the warp.

A foreboding presence held in awe by other planetary life forms, the Diplomats strike only when their webs are fully spun. Then, for extricating those caught by their own rash acts, the Diplomats negotiate their terms.
Not Main Player - Optional - Reveal

This sharpens Diplomat's teeth a bit. He is less likely to get "punished" for using his power, because neither main player can single-handedly torpedo the deal (although they could certainly work together to do so if Diplomat's position in the game is getting scary). Masochist is still free to cross his arms and grunt "bite me", but now Diplomat can work something out with Masochist's opponent. (And I realized that Masochist's 3 ships lost is probably not as good for him as the 4 he was hoping to lose in the gate or the 6 he was hoping to lose on the planet anyway.)

In the typical (non-Masochist) context, I like how this puts both main players in the position of trying to offer Diplomat something good, for fear of being the only one left out of the deal.

Finally, I note that there is also a bit of a level-the-playing-field effect here, which may fit into Kevin's reported design ethic. When one of the main players is leading in foreign colonies, the logical outcome is for Diplomat to trade colony-for-colony with the other main player, allowing them both to catch up. When Diplomat is the leader, the two main players will most likely not allow him a colony.

Anybody else like this?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Burns
United States
Troy
MI
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Oooh, very nice. The "cost" of playing a Negotiate is now a necessity, as it sets a definite limit to this power's ability to seriously hose. Other players should work hard to keep Negotiates out of Diplomat's hands, if at all possible!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the kind words, guys; I've updated the alien sheet mockup to version 1.2 (see page 1 of thread).

EDIT: Removed Ethic now that we know it's in Incursion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mar hawkman
msg tools
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thirded

I'd love to play with this version.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darth Thulhu?
Mexico
Sonora
flag msg tools
|)@r+# +#¿£#¿
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Bill Martinson wrote:
For your consideration:

You have the power to Negotiate. When you are not a main player and one or more attack cards are revealed in an encounter, you may use this power to play a negotiate card. The revealed cards are discarded, and the two main players and you have 2 minutes to attempt to deal. No player may gain more than is allowed in the rules for making a deal. You may make a 2-way deal with one of the main players, or a 3-way deal with both of them. Each player who is not a part of the deal loses 3 ships to the warp.

[...]

Anybody else like this?


Had a chance to try this out last night, and it was a big hit. People playing Diplomat 1.2 have an impressive power. If nothing else, they've converted every single "bad" negotiate card into an something that will never drag their own encounters down, while taking 6 other tokens down with their 3 if things go poorly. So, at worst, they've got some Philanthropist-lite plus Vacuum/Hate going on. And, given the nature of that Negotiate virtually coercing someone to make some kind of deal, they're very likely to make at least a modest profit by really wheeling and dealing.

Most importantly, though, the negotiations with Diplomat 1.2 were FUN! Rather than trying to talk a potential spoiler into acquiescing to a deal rather than spiking two foes, these negotiations made people sit up and pay attention. Diplomat chooses when to be the center of attention. If I were Dictator or Will, I'd *strongly* consider sending people against (or willing myself against) Diplomat just to preempt the interference.

Other notes:
Diplomat still tried to bargain for more negotiates, but they were less freely given, considering how aggressive these Diplomat 1.2 negotiations are.
If Diplomat had a sizable hand but no negotiates, it always wanted to ally on the Defense for a shot at more Negotiates (and people wanted to invite it to discourage it from spiking the encounter). Depending on the makeup of the Rewards Deck, this may become even more pronounced.
This is now a sufficiently straightforward power, with sufficiently minimal downside, that it might qualify for Yellow status. There's very few situations where it's a bad idea to use this power ... rather than looking for optimal situations where both main players might want to deal, you only need to avoid rare situations where neither main player would possibly want to deal (and if you just want to spike ships, more power to you).

My only hesitance is that this Diplomat is, to my mind, strictly better than Empath. The forced negotiations are much more likely to be fruitful, and the potential to willfully drag 6 ships to the warp when you aren't even a main player is way more than Empath could ever hope to achieve. I personally don't have a problem with this, and would just never include Empath in a set with this Diplomat, but I feel it needs to be stated for the record.
5 
 Thumb up
0.03
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mar hawkman
msg tools
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nice AAR. It sounds like you guys had lots of fun testing it out.

as for the Empath thing.... diplomat's power doesn't work as a main player.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, it can be argued that, as the number of players decreases, Diplomat gets weaker and Empath gets stronger.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darth Thulhu?
Mexico
Sonora
flag msg tools
|)@r+# +#¿£#¿
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
marhawkman wrote:
Nice AAR. It sounds like you guys had lots of fun testing it out.

as for the Empath thing.... diplomat's power doesn't work as a main player.


Yep, but Empath can't work *unless* they're a Main Player. It's just mirrored-opposite utilization availability. In a 4-player game, opportunity knocks equally for each. I don't play 3-player Cosmic, so the Empath-favoring situation won't come up for me. Even in 4-player, though, with equal frequency of Power Use, each power pitches a Negotiate to coerce dealmaking ... and the Diplomat drives significantly harder bargains, with twice as many negotiating partners.

Also, I would argue that the Diplomat engaging in deals when not a main player, and thus pitching auto-loss encounter cards before even getting to their encounter, is strictly superior to Empath having to use their encounters for the purpose. Assume each participates in 4 encounters out of 8 as a main player, and started with two Negotiates. The Empath spend 50% of their first 4 encounters forcing deals, giving up any hope of outright victory, and losing outright if zapped. By comparison, Diplomat spends those same two Negotiates during two of the other 4 encounters. None of their normal 4 encounters are weighted down at all. They can play Attack cards on all 4 encounters, and will draw a new hand sooner than Empath would (probably getting even more Negotiates to use on the last couple of encounters where they aren't a main player.) Empath can't do anything on the 4 encounters where they aren't a main-player, and only has 2 out of 8 encounters where they're fighting to win (and 2 where they might be able to colony trade). By contrast, Diplomat is fighting hard in all 4 regular encounters, and trying for colonies on at least 2 of the remaining 4, if not more should they draw a new hand before 8 encounters pass. Even before considering the severe comparitive advantage the Diplomats have in each negotiation, they are strictly more effective than Empath in ditching cards and maximizing encounter opportunities. They get to have encounters even when it's not their turn and Destiny doesn't pick them. That's huge.

Like I said, I don't personally have a problem with that, and just wouldn't include Empath. But if someone wants to include Empath and Diplomat 1.2, the Empath might need some tweaking to be competitive.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris O
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The best way to weaken Diplomat1.2 and give Empath some bite back is to make it so that the dealing is only available if a main player plays a N and you play yours, then you make the deal with the player who played the N, while the other player is effectively pwnt.

However if both player's play N, you can play an N and hijack their deal making it 3 way.

This saves Empath a lot of dignity by making Diplomat's power more restrictive to balance it's raw power.

My 2 pennies.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barney Bustoffson
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not to hijack the Diplomat discussion further (for the record, this current version of Diplomat is the bomb)), but Empath also needs to seriously be an optional power. Empath can also stand to be able to activate his power is either player plays a negotiate, rather than just himself (why not give him more flexibility?). And finally, since it looks like the crooked deal outcome isn't going to be needed for the revamped Diplomat, I officially nominate Empath to receive it. Without Rob to defend it, Empath always comes out looking like a weak alien. Anything to give it a little more "menace" is am improvement in my book. If the deal fails, Empath loses 2 ships, and his opponent loses 4.

Carry on.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Darth Thulhu wrote:
[a great comparison of Diplomat 1.2 vs. Empath]

Excellent analysis and presentation.

Messianic wrote:
The best way to weaken Diplomat1.2 and give Empath some bite back is to make it so that the dealing is only available if a main player plays a N and you play yours, then you make the deal with the player who played the N, while the other player is effectively pwnt.

However if both player's play N, you can play an N and hijack their deal making it 3 way.

I see the logic behind this, but from my perspective it is straying uncomfortably far from the original power. Your suggestion is clever, but this would mean our "delta" vs. Eon Diplomat would become four-fold:

* must play an N to use your power
* can make 2-way or 3-way deals
* can only deal with those main players who played an N
* doesn't matter if an attack card was revealed or not

This actually reverses the use of the power from "an attack card was played" to "a negotiate card was played" and, along a different axis, reverses the conditions for a three-way deal from "an attack card was played" to "an attack card was not played" (which works directly against the history text).

Overall, this feels too far off the map for my taste ... it's starting to become a new power rather than a tweak. (Even with my earlier suggestion I was already feeling a bit queasy that we'd made two changes to the original power.)

If the revision is unpalatable because of the implications for Empath, I would rather back up and re-engineer the revision rather than bolt more changes onto it.

(I realize this makes me a hypocrite since I bolted a change onto Rob's original revision; it's just a lot easier to live with one bolt-on than it is to live with three.)

Bustoffson wrote:
Empath can also stand to be able to activate his power is either player plays a negotiate, rather than just himself (why not give him more flexibility?).

In a vacuum, I've always kind of liked the idea of an Empath that can optionally change either player's attack to match the other player's negotiate; that would be a very strong power, in that you would never have to give or receive compensation when you didn't want to (maybe even a little too strong). Peter Olatka makes the point that an optional Empath would no longer be "harmonious" but rather duplicitous. (In my own mind, I make the counterpoint that Empath already is a bit duplicitous in that he gets to attack whenever he wants to by simply playing an attack card.)

I guess the question is whether Empath actually is weak, or just looks weak when somebody isn't defending it. I love powers that only look weak (Philanthropist being the poster child thereof) and wouldn't want to change them.

So I'm a little ambivalent here. If Empath is truly crippled, then the change to being able to optionally morph an attack into a copy of the opposing negotiate (in either direction) seems like a reasonable tweak — albeit a strong one — that's probably still in the ballpark. I'm just not yet convinced it's necessary.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris O
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If it turns out that you can't tweak Diplomat to be fair with Empath being considered, perhaps it is best to just let him die off as a power kind of like Kevin's treatment of Laser, and replace him perhaps with Jack's Maven like how Magician is the better Laser.

I feel overall it is a better power, and adds the fun alternative win to it. In fact, you can take the changes that you feel stray too far off Diplomat's origins, and be comfortable with them now because it is a different alien, and mix it with Maven's attributes and create a palatable hybrid that allows Empath to save face.

Maybe something like:

Maven:

Game Setup: Place 2 tokens on this sheet plus 1 for every player in the game.

You have the power to Adjudicate. As a non-main player, whenever a player reveals a N you may use this power to play an N and begin a deal with that player, the other main player sends his ships back to his colonies and discards his encounter card. If they were the offensive player their turn ends. If both main players play N, then you may use this power to play an N also and a 3 way deal is made within 2 minutes. If a deal fails lose 2 ships to the Warp while others lose 4.

Every time to you initiate a successful deal via use of your power take a token off of this sheet. When there are no remaining tokens on this sheet you immediately win the game, you can still win via the normal method.


Maybe too much hybrid for people's liking, but I think somewhere in the myriad of combos between the 2 powers a happy balance can be found that is practical, unique, thematic, and leaves Empath with a job.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Messianic wrote:
If it turns out that you can't tweak Diplomat to be fair with Empath being considered, perhaps it is best to just let him die off as a power kind of like Kevin's treatment of Laser, and replace him perhaps with Jack's Maven ... Maybe something like:

Stop right there! This is emphatically off-topic for the Classic Alien Power Revision Workshop thread. Please re-read the Workshop Rules ... this is exactly the kind of background noise they are trying to prevent. Plenty of other topics are available (and can be created) for homebrew discussion, and arguments about whether specific classic powers are good or bad.

The purpose of this thread is to focus our best efforts on updating the classics as elegantly as possible, independently of the other concerns.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mar hawkman
msg tools
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
the situation isn't that bad.....

So what if one power is technically "stronger"? It doesn't really matter.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris O
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Good luck trying to make Diplomat unique, practical, and not totally make Empath useless. If you make Empath useless then Diplomat fails because Empath came first.

I am just considering all options. I think you are trying to minimally tweak a hero that can't be fixed with minimal tweaks at all without making other heros completely obsolete. Kind of like what Jack said makes a horrible home-brew, when an alien completely overshadows one or more aliens there's something inherently wrong.

If you somehow manage to do it without murdering Empath, I'll cheer for you, but it doesn't look like it is possible unless you are ALSO going to mess with Empath, which is hypocritical for "minimalistic revisions" of the ONE hero.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Messianic wrote:
I am just considering all options.

I understand ... but some of those options need to be considered in other threads. No homebrew mechanicking in the workshop, please.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darth Thulhu?
Mexico
Sonora
flag msg tools
|)@r+# +#¿£#¿
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Bill Martinson wrote:
If the revision is unpalatable because of the implications for Empath, I would rather back up and re-engineer the revision rather than bolt more changes onto it.


Place me strongly in the camp that Diplomat 1.2 is fhtagn awesome. It uses 4-5 lines of simple text (unlike some of the Cosmic Incursion wordbombs) to create an effective and distinctive power. And if it shows Empath up, I think that just shows Empath's mediocrity, which is not Diplomat's problem ... Diplomat 1.2 isn't outvirusing Virus, it's just negotiating better than a mediocre first-wave negotiation Power, which quite arguably needs a look of it's own.

Bill Martinson wrote:
Bustoffson wrote:
Empath can also stand to be able to activate his power is either player plays a negotiate, rather than just himself (why not give him more flexibility?).

In a vacuum, I've always kind of liked the idea of an Empath that can optionally change either player's attack to match the other player's negotiate; that would be a very strong power, in that you would never have to give or receive compensation when you didn't want to (maybe even a little too strong).

It's strong, but it's also distinctive from Diplomat (which in 1.2 is strong, flat out). Such a tweaked Empath can't negotiate as hard as Diplomat, but it can pursue negotiation where Diplomat can't, sometimes without any expenditure on it's part. It can avoid compensation pays where Diplomat can't ... That's a fair and vivid distiction.

Bill Martinson wrote:
Peter Olatka makes the point that an optional Empath would no longer be "harmonious" but rather duplicitous.

Conquering the Cosmos ain't beanbag. The Empath we're always only "harmonious" in a self-serving way. This makes them even more "harmonious" in an even more self-serving way ... And lets them smack Pacifist around when on offense. Such a tweaked Empath is "harmonious" like an Orwellian state is "harmonious" ... It's all smiles and agreement, enforced (and punishable) by law. Creepy and awesome.

Bill Martinson wrote:
I guess the question is whether Empath actually is weak, or just looks weak when somebody isn't defending it. I love powers that only look weak (Philanthropist being the poster child thereof) and wouldn't want to change them.

Empath has always been, to me, at best, mediocre. In two-power games, I'll tolerate it as one of a pair. In solo games, it's just never picked around my part of the woods. It's not horrible, but by no means is it great.

Tweaked optional 2-way empath, however ... That's a good power. In the Kevin Wilson "I want to play it because it will help me win" sense of being a good power, as well as in the Two-Power game sense that I would love to play optional-Empath and Diplomat 1.2 together ... you'd be the God-Emperor of Negotiation.
2 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm surprised I'm even doing this but, uh, Martian is up on page one.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/4434397#4434397
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris O
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Explain why the card played as a zap counts as both a cosmic zap and an artifact... specifically the artifact part.

As a cosmic zap I understand, so that you can card zap it. However as an Artifact it doesn't seem to warrant any significant reasoning.

Am I missing something that REQUIRES it being an artifact too? I mean Vulch can;t take it because when it is discarded it is no longer an artifact for him to steal...

P.S. Martian would be the most annoying hand-management power EVER. Perhaps only being able to zap as a main player or ally is more fair since you is eliminating his crap cards at the same time. Kinda overshadows Philanthropist I'd say.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.