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Subject: The Man, The Myth, The Moustache Math Trade - Part C - The Moustache - Discussion Thread rss

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Prepare yourselves for the onslaught that is......Week 3.


Important Times and Dates:
Monday, February 15, 2010 1000 CST/1600 GMT : Item Submission Opens
Saturday, February 20, 2010 1000 CST/1600 GMT : Item Submission Closes/Want Submission Opens
Monday, February 22, 2010 1000 CST/1600 GMT : Want Submission Closes/Results Posted

Unusual Rules:
1. Board Games, RPGs, related items, GeekGold, and Game Store Gift Certificates only. No other items.
2. You have to cover at least $15 of shipping.

Quick Links:
Trade List: The Man, The Myth, The Moustache Math Trade - Part C - The Moustache
Request List: The Man, The Myth, The Moustache Math Trade - Request List
Discussion Thread: The Man, The Myth, The Moustache Math Trade - Part C - The Moustache - Discussion Thread

Full Rules:
1) Use of OLWLG is required.

2) Only Board Games, RPGs, GeekGold and Gift Certificates are allowed. You must currently have all the GeekGold, and all Gift Certificates must be to Game Stores. NO GG or GC arbitrage.

3) Non-game entries must be added as "Outside the Scope of BGG" (game id 23953), "Miscellaneous Game Accessory" (game id 5985) or "Miscellaneous Game Merchandise" (game id 22104) and must include the +altname+ brief description -altname- format in the description of your item.

If you are offering an expansion for which there is no entry in BGG (for instance expansion cards handed out at Essen) and NOT the base game, please use "Miscellaneous Game Accessory" to help avoid confusion.

4) You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition (components and box), language and edition of your item in the description. Do not just say, "as pictured."

For games not brand new (in shrink) you must inventory the game's components and list anything missing. Do not assume it's complete. Also, remember that just because something is "new in shrink" that doesn't mean that you shouldn't disclose any dings. It might not matter to you, but it matters to some people.

If the game and/or expansion you are listing is a "Print & Play" make that clear in the description (and I recommend you give specifics what it was printed on, mounted on, etc).

If you are listing an expansion if you reference the base game in the description be clear one way or the other if you are including the base game or not. Do not include a link to the base game unless you are including it as this looks, in the OLWLG, as if you are.

5) Sweeteners are to be listed using the GAMEID formatting (prefered, example Hansa). If you don't use this format your sweeteners won't show up in the OLWLG properly.

6) If you've been reported as a bad trader, you cannot participate. If you try to, I will remove your entries. If you see someone posting entries who is a bad trader, please let me know.

7) Please do NOT include links to other games in your entry unless you are actually including them as a sweetener, as this is displayed in a misleading manner by the OLWLG.

8) You may go with whatever shipping restriciotns you'd like, but you must cover at least the first $15 of shipping anywhere you are willing to ship to.

9) Finally - you are expected to periodically check during the item submission period, and preferably during the want list submission period, to see if anyone has commented on your entries. People often ask questions of items - most commonly because you have forgotten to state a version, language or shipping policy - and you should check in to address such questions in a timely manner should they arise, so that everyone then has the correct information available.

This is a very easy thing to do. Just click on "My Geek", then "Contributions" and finally on "GeekList Items". You will then be able to see your items without having to find them in the trade GeekList along with any comments that people have made. You will only need to go back to the trade GeekList to make adjustments or answer questions if there were any.

Trade Settings:
TradeMaximizer 1.4 with duplicate protection. SEED=4213420, ITERATIONS=500, METRIC=USERS-TRADING

Good Luck Trading

Seed updated, because of possible trademaximizer bug.
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Bryan Maxwell
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Re: Myth, The Moustache Math Trade - Part C - The Moustache - Discussion Thread
This third trade is going to kick ass. Lots and lots of ass.
 
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Re: Myth, The Moustache Math Trade - Part C - The Moustache - Discussion Thread
Looking forward to MT 3. Thanks again!
 
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Adrian George
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We are up and running.
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Seed updated, because of possible trademaximizer bug.

Ack, i forgot to reserve myself some space for stats, oh well.
 
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Eric Sokolowsky
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Having stats on the front page doesn't seem to be as important as it used to be. I hardly look at the front page after a math trade concludes anymore, since results are available through the OLWLG. Since I subscribe to the thread I would only see the stats if they are posted just like a regular comment. I'm also becoming a fan of only posting the complete rules in the discussion list because duplicating it in the trade list makes the trade list even more unusable than it was before, and it's difficult to synchronize changes to both.
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Eddie Mittelstedt
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Agreed, I think the stats spaces are for non-OWL trades. OWL has pretty much made them obsolete.
 
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Good to see you've changed the shipping policy. I still won't be taking part however as I've sold most of my trade bait.
 
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georgeofjungle3 wrote:

4) You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition (components and box), language and edition of your item in the description. Do not just say, "as pictured."



A lot of people aren't doing this. Please check you entries and make sure you are providing edition. I'm getting tired of asking people.
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georgeofjungle3 wrote:
georgeofjungle3 wrote:

4) You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition (components and box), language and edition of your item in the description. Do not just say, "as pictured."



A lot of people aren't doing this. Please check you entries and make sure you are providing edition. I'm getting tired of asking people.


Join the club! We need our own microbadge or something... ().
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georgeofjungle3 wrote:
georgeofjungle3 wrote:

4) You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition (components and box), language and edition of your item in the description. Do not just say, "as pictured."



A lot of people aren't doing this. Please check you entries and make sure you are providing edition. I'm getting tired of asking people.


In my defense, i had no ideer that there were various editions of Munchkin. Plus, it takes quite a bit of looking to find out that there are multiple editions of many games.

That's not me complainin about the requirement it's more to point out that many folks won't be aware they NEED to specify a version of a game if you don't ask em.
 
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Adrian George
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gooble wrote:
georgeofjungle3 wrote:
georgeofjungle3 wrote:

4) You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition (components and box), language and edition of your item in the description. Do not just say, "as pictured."



A lot of people aren't doing this. Please check you entries and make sure you are providing edition. I'm getting tired of asking people.


In my defense, i had no ideer that there were various editions of Munchkin. Plus, it takes quite a bit of looking to find out that there are multiple editions of many games.

That's not me complainin about the requirement it's more to point out that many folks won't be aware they NEED to specify a version of a game if you don't ask em. :)


I wasn't necessarily calling you out directly, because that one i don't think is clearly marked on the box or anything, you just have to have been around long enough to know that they switched the backs a couple of years back. It's the same time they started including expansion symbols on their expansions, those you can generally figure out based off of packaging though, if you got a blister pack or tuckbox it's generally a later edition. If you have the cardboard folder, that normally a pre expansion symbol edition.

But for some of the one's I'm having to call out something as simple as mentioning the publisher will immediately tell someone which edition it is.
 
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I noticed that a lot of people are not saying how much they will cover for shipping. In past math trades, there is a condition that, when not specified, it is assumed to be fully covered by the shipper. Does this apply here or should I go and comment on every item that is vague on shipping?
 
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MrScaryMuffin wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people are not saying how much they will cover for shipping. In past math trades, there is a condition that, when not specified, it is assumed to be fully covered by the shipper. Does this apply here or should I go and comment on every item that is vague on shipping?

I'm going to say that if they didn't specify they are bound to cover the first 15, since that is in the rules, but they will go worldwide.
 
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georgeofjungle3 wrote:
MrScaryMuffin wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people are not saying how much they will cover for shipping. In past math trades, there is a condition that, when not specified, it is assumed to be fully covered by the shipper. Does this apply here or should I go and comment on every item that is vague on shipping?

I'm going to say that if they didn't specify they are bound to cover the first 15, since that is in the rules, but they will go worldwide.

argh, call me an idiot again but I assumed standard math trade rules that if you don't specify the sender is paying for the whole shipping (to wherever they are shipping)... I'm likely not the only idiot... and not everyone follows the discussion thread to see your post. Will now double check the less than handful of items on my want lists so far....
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JeffyJeff wrote:
georgeofjungle3 wrote:
MrScaryMuffin wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people are not saying how much they will cover for shipping. In past math trades, there is a condition that, when not specified, it is assumed to be fully covered by the shipper. Does this apply here or should I go and comment on every item that is vague on shipping?

I'm going to say that if they didn't specify they are bound to cover the first 15, since that is in the rules, but they will go worldwide.

argh, call me an idiot again but I assumed standard math trade rules that if you don't specify the sender is paying for the whole shipping (to wherever they are shipping)... I'm likely not the only idiot... and not everyone follows the discussion thread to see your post. Will now double check the less than handful of items on my want lists so far....


Indeed...I'm going to be double checking at the end of the math trade myself.

If I have time today, I'll go through the whole trade list and bug all the people that isn't specific That way, the red will show up on OLWLG and hopefully save a few more people some headaches
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Adrian George
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MrScaryMuffin wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
georgeofjungle3 wrote:
MrScaryMuffin wrote:
I noticed that a lot of people are not saying how much they will cover for shipping. In past math trades, there is a condition that, when not specified, it is assumed to be fully covered by the shipper. Does this apply here or should I go and comment on every item that is vague on shipping?

I'm going to say that if they didn't specify they are bound to cover the first 15, since that is in the rules, but they will go worldwide.

argh, call me an idiot again but I assumed standard math trade rules that if you don't specify the sender is paying for the whole shipping (to wherever they are shipping)... I'm likely not the only idiot... and not everyone follows the discussion thread to see your post. Will now double check the less than handful of items on my want lists so far....


Indeed...I'm going to be double checking at the end of the math trade myself.

If I have time today, I'll go through the whole trade list and bug all the people that isn't specific :p That way, the red will show up on OLWLG and hopefully save a few more people some headaches


I think there is only one person who hasn't specified, and somebody has already bothered them. I try to keep an eye out for people who aren't following the rules, if you spot one, send me a gm and i'll bother them.

EDIT: I always double check on the end, because sometimes i miss things while adding.
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So, just to clarify... non-game entries are not permitted even as sweeteners? Right?

JeffyJeff wrote:
...argh, call me an idiot again but I assumed standard math trade rules that if you don't specify [then] the sender is paying for the whole shipping (to wherever they are shipping)

I did too. But now realize that my assumption may lead to confusion. So, I just went back and updated my offers to explicitly declare that I would cover full shipping to the US.
 
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I noticed 2 or 3 just going through my list right now. You can organize the OLWLG list of all items by user and just read through the item description to see who is not noting their shipping conditions.

Here are a few users that I picked out:
edosan
FezAZ
georgeofjungle3 (for shame!)
gooble
jadams875
kdiddy13
logicalgambit
radynski
RoamDog
TMascara
tokyozin
yegods

Some of the above users are specfic on some items and vague on others
 
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RoamDog wrote:
So, just to clarify... non-game entries are not permitted even as sweeteners? Right?

GC and GG are allowed non-game items, not sure about other non-game stuff

by the way remind me to add a rule to my next MT about needlessly long item descriptions that simply cuts/pastes the info from the BGG game description, such as...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/item/1208055

Imagine if everyone did this... it would be a nightmare imho
 
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JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
So, just to clarify... non-game entries are not permitted even as sweeteners? Right?

GC and GG are allowed non-game items, not sure about other non-game stuff

by the way remind me to add a rule to my next MT about needlessly long item descriptions that simply cuts/pastes the info from the BGG game description, such as...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/item/1208055

Imagine if everyone did this... it would be a nightmare imho


Your opinion is different than mine and I love the fact that MTs accommodate diversity. Clearly, our approach/goals/desires to/for MTs is probably different.
I appreciate posters providing details about offers to catch my attention so that I have an opportunity to find and consider games that otherwise would not be on my radar. If I knew exactly what I wanted going in to the MT, then the extra data would be less useful. And if I was only interested in Agricola and the rest of the top 20 games, then the extra data would be less useful. However, I would not really need a MT then as I could just trade straight up for all the top games as there are plenty of copies for trade all the time.

Mod - can you clarify whether non-game items (other than GG and GC) are allowed as sweeteners?
 
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RoamDog wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
Imagine if everyone did this... it would be a nightmare imho

Ok, let me change that to a question for you....

Do you or do you not agree that it would be a nightmare if everyone did this? Imagine if you were lucky to get even get past one item each time you hit "page down"

RoamDog wrote:
Your opinion is different than mine and I love the fact that MTs accommodate diversity.

What does this have to do with diversity? To me this is no different than when you were cut/pasting this giant disclaimer onto each of your items (which now at least most MT rules boiler plate now disallows) which is about 353 words or almost 2,000 characters. I've got credit card agreements that shorter

RoamDog wrote:
I appreciate posters providing details about offers to catch my attention so that I have an opportunity to find and consider games that otherwise would not be on my radar.

You got one thing right... it definitely catches attention just like your long disclaimer did but not the kind of attention you think. Folks were specifically asking me for OLWLG functionality to filter "out" specific users (the ones who named names all named the same person ) whose listings were clogging up their desire to go through 1,500+ listings easily.

Folks already have a way to easily see a games description... clicking on the game's name will bring it up on BGG. There are also various things that unlike a useless game description already is there to catch folks attention... the game's "rank", "rating", stats like Trade,Want,Wish, the designer(s), play time, number of players. These things have drawn me to look at many listings containing games I never had heard of before and then I go did deeper (such as doing a geek bud analysis, etc).

RoamDog wrote:
If I knew exactly what I wanted going in to the MT, then the extra data would be less useful.

I wouldn't call pasting in the game's marketing description "data" or "useful"

the bigger problem is that all that extra text makes it much harder to find the "useful" info that should be in the listing like edition/language, shipping restrictions... look at the one above for your St. Pete Expansion... I want that one and had to read through the entire listing just to find out the important info wasn't even there (to confirm it's English RGG)

RoamDog wrote:
However, I would not really need a MT then as I could just trade straight up for all the top games as there are plenty of copies for trade all the time.

I'm not following the logical progression here but I don't see how not allowing folks to load up their listings with a cut/paste of the game's description means you might as well not be in a MT and just find direct trades? the problem of direct trading still exists, both folks have to have what each other wants or comparable value and come to an agreement.

Do note that I'm not proposing rules against putting anything into an item's listing other than the required info. But imho there is a big difference between saying something like "this is out of print", "this game is underrated", etc etc and adding in almost 1,000 characters (your Oregon description) that if everyone did would create a nightmare imho.

By the way, for what it's worth... the original version of the OLWLG I use to display the game's description from BGG on every listing. This was when MT's couldn't have more than 500 items and even then it was too much. First I tried just hiding the info by default but it still caused the amount of data for the browser to download and store to be too much.

May be time I actually address large listings from within the OLWLG itself, I'm thinking about simply hiding the body of the listing by default if it's over a certain size... though the problem with this is that listings that contain lots of sweeteners (or are pick N) will have those not show up by default (and sometimes what draws me in to one of those is green highlighted sweeteners not the main game and I'll miss those
 
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MrScaryMuffin wrote:
I noticed 2 or 3 just going through my list right now. You can organize the OLWLG list of all items by user and just read through the item description to see who is not noting their shipping conditions.

Here are a few users that I picked out:
edosan
FezAZ
georgeofjungle3 (for shame!)
gooble
jadams875
kdiddy13
logicalgambit
radynski
RoamDog
TMascara
tokyozin
yegods

Some of the above users are specfic on some items and vague on others


Damn, which one did i miss?


And you are correct roamdog non game related items, other than gc and ggs are not allowed.
 
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MrScaryMuffin wrote:
I noticed 2 or 3 just going through my list right now. You can organize the OLWLG list of all items by user and just read through the item description to see who is not noting their shipping conditions.

Here are a few users that I picked out:
edosan
FezAZ
georgeofjungle3 (for shame!)
gooble
jadams875
kdiddy13
logicalgambit
radynski
RoamDog
TMascara
tokyozin
yegods

Some of the above users are specfic on some items and vague on others


I see the confusion now. I'll update the header later to reflect the clarification. If someone specifies a region, and nothing else they are assumed to be shipping there entirely at their cost. If they specify nothing at all assume first $15 worldwide.

EDIT: The first time i responded i thought you were asking about the second case, now i understand what you were actually asking.
 
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JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
Imagine if everyone did this... it would be a nightmare imho

Ok, let me change that to a question for you....
Do you or do you not agree that it would be a nightmare if everyone did this? Imagine if you were lucky to get even get past one item each time you hit "page down"

I do not think that it would be a nightmare. Nor really an issue at all. It takes 0.00000000000001 nanoseconds to page down. Now if content affected how many entries were returned per page in the geeklist, that would be a different matter. But it is 25 per page no matter how detailed or vague the entries are. The nightmare for me is entries that tell me nothing about the game. And it takes waaaaaaaaay more time to click the link to open another page to get more details on a game from the db than it takes to page down through entries that have some detail.


JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
Your opinion is different than mine and I love the fact that MTs accommodate diversity.

What does this have to do with diversity? To me this is no different than when you were cut/pasting this giant disclaimer onto each of your items (which now at least most MT rules boiler plate now disallows) which is about 353 words or almost 2,000 characters. I've got credit card agreements that shorter

Diversity meaning different people look at/expect different things from Math Trades. I look at MTs as more of a flea market. You look at them differently. Does not mean that you are wrong. Just that we have a slightly different expectation.
And your cc agreements are way more than 2,000 characters (primarily due to legistation—said the guy who is currently consulting in the credit card services line of business at a large bank)


JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
I appreciate posters providing details about offers to catch my attention so that I have an opportunity to find and consider games that otherwise would not be on my radar.

You got one thing right... it definitely catches attention just like your long disclaimer did but not the kind of attention you think. Folks were specifically asking me for OLWLG functionality to filter "out" specific users (the ones who named names all named the same person ) whose listings were clogging up their desire to go through 1,500+ listings easily.

I would love to have a function to filter out specific users, but for different reasons than you. And the next guy would also probably love to have a function to filter out specific users but for reasons other than yours or mine. Please feel free to add that function. It will not hurt my feelings if somebody wants to filter my offers out. I would probably rather not trade with them anyway (as we would have less in common with respect to our expectations from MTs than I would have with other users). Admittedly, if I did not already have 400 trading partners here on BGG who have had no issue with trading with me, I might be concerned about it.


JeffyJeff wrote:
Folks already have a way to easily see a games description... clicking on the game's name will bring it up on BGG. There are also various things that unlike a useless game description already is there to catch folks attention... the game's "rank", "rating", stats like Trade,Want,Wish, the designer(s), play time, number of players. These things have drawn me to look at many listings containing games I never had heard of before and then I go did deeper (such as doing a geek bud analysis, etc).

Clearly having to click through a link for every game is way more time consuming than paging down through a description. Not sure that I understand your logic if the issue is all about time consumed.


JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
If I knew exactly what I wanted going in to the MT, then the extra data would be less useful.

I wouldn't call pasting in the game's marketing description "data" or "useful"

I am totally OK with you agreeing to disagree on what you find useful versus what I find useful.


JeffyJeff wrote:
the bigger problem is that all that extra text makes it much harder to find the "useful" info that should be in the listing like edition/language, shipping restrictions... look at the one above for your St. Pete Expansion... I want that one and had to read through the entire listing just to find out the important info wasn't even there (to confirm it's English RGG)

Acknowledged. I have tried to use bolded tags to delimit sections, but it is not perfect. And I clearly goofed on the St. Pete entry by not including edition/publisher info.


JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
However, I would not really need a MT then as I could just trade straight up for all the top games as there are plenty of copies for trade all the time.

I'm not following the logical progression here but I don't see how not allowing folks to load up their listings with a cut/paste of the game's description means you might as well not be in a MT and just find direct trades? the problem of direct trading still exists, both folks have to have what each other wants or comparable value and come to an agreement.

I may not have done a very good job of explaining the logic so do not be too disappointed if you did not follow it. I do not find it hard at all to make direct trades for the Power Grids and Agricolas of the world. It is the less ubiquitous stuff that is sometimes harder for me and therefore where the power of the MT shines.


JeffyJeff wrote:
Do note that I'm not proposing rules against putting anything into an item's listing other than the required info. But imho there is a big difference between saying something like "this is out of print", "this game is underrated", etc etc and adding in almost 1,000 characters (your Oregon description) that if everyone did would create a nightmare imho.

Again, I am totally OK with you agreeing to disagree on what constitutes a nightmare.


JeffyJeff wrote:
By the way, for what it's worth... the original version of the OLWLG I use to display the game's description from BGG on every listing. This was when MT's couldn't have more than 500 items and even then it was too much. First I tried just hiding the info by default but it still caused the amount of data for the browser to download and store to be too much.

Ah…this may be the biggest difference in our approach to MTs. I use the actual GL to determine what I might be interested in. I do not use the OLWG to determine what I want and what I do not want. I only use it for sorting, generating the prioritized officially formatted want list and (now for most recent MTs), the actual submission to the moderator. Don’t get me wrong, I still think it is a great tool and I have no problem with folks that want to ignore the official GL and only use the OLWLG, but that is just not how I solve the problem.


JeffyJeff wrote:
May be time I actually address large listings from within the OLWLG itself, I'm thinking about simply hiding the body of the listing by default if it's over a certain size... though the problem with this is that listings that contain lots of sweeteners (or are pick N) will have those not show up by default (and sometimes what draws me in to one of those is green highlighted sweeteners not the main game and I'll miss those

As with most things in life there are trade-offs.
 
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