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Subject: King Philip's War Outrage: Round Two rss

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John Poniske
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A street protest occurred against my King Philip's War design and a second article has been presented in the Cape Cod Times. The link follows

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2010...

In my response to the reporter, I thanked her for keeping her word in presenting a more balanced piece. I understand that those who are angered by the game have to be approached and quoted, but at least this time the newspaper offered the true purpose of the game. The more I read about the arguments against KPW the more I agree with my wife, "Some people refuse to be confused by the facts!"
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Sean Chick (Formerly Paul O'Sullivan)
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Fag an bealac! Riam nar druid ar sbarin lann! Cuimhnigidh ar Luimnech agus feall na Sassonach! Erin go Bragh! Remember Limerick! Remember Ireland and Fontenoy!
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Well, I'm afraid it'll have to wait. Whatever it was, I'm sure it was better than my plan to get out of this by pretending to be mad. I mean, who would have noticed another madman round here?
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How silly. I guess some people would rather protest a game than a real injustice.

This isn't going to stop your game from being made?
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Ronny Heinz
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It's like the satanic accusations to D&D players. People don't know/understand something, so it must be bad. My country was overrun by Germany, nevertheless I like to play the losers (i.e. germans).
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John Poniske
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No Sean ... in fact it has ramped up preorders and put King Philip on the Fast Track. I am happy about that aspect, but honestly, not how it ocurred.
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John Poniske
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And, Ronnie, I appreciate your point of view. I like to play the historical loser as well. I suspect most of us do. I think that led to my designs leading me into historical backwaters which tends to make folks uneasy. I am currently researching Toussaint Louverture and the slave rebellions in Haiti (1789-1804).
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Paul Borchers
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John Poniske wrote:
I am currently researching Toussaint Louverture and the slave rebellions in Haiti (1789-1804).


Holy cow - duck and cover!

I'm kidding, of course. I knew nothing of King Philip's War until I heard about your game. Now I want to learn more.
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John Poniske the younger
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I have read the second article and am still dissatisfied with the tone, but it is better than the last one so it's a small victory I suppose.

I am psyched about the sudden increase in the pre-orders of this game and lincon's war. Tell your friends and I'm sure we will see more games about lesser known conflicts.

Also a minor plug to a conflict I didn't know much about before my dad's game, if you haven't already check out Maori Wars.
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Oh you seekers of the new who run terrified from history into the clutches of an eternal life where no electric shaver can be built to last.
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John, I just sent you a mail on this subject and I want to make sure you see it. If you have the opportunity please let me know that you're received it.

S.


 
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RanDomino Nickelmaster
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It sounds like they're upset that it's potentially being treated in a sanitized way, like a sterile event that didn't really happen. Treating war as a Manichean clash of totally irreconcilable people is not realistic in any form or context.

Also, it doesn't help that all of the places on the map use the Colonist names and borders.
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Ronny Heinz
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As soon as my credit card works again (someone has hacked it, or rather a server where the information was stored) I will pre-order this game. As the history of America isn't very much treated here in Luxembourg, I did not know from such a conflict. This is one of the main reasons I play wargames, to learn bits of history which I knew nothing of.
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Nico Solitander
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Firepot wrote:
It's like the satanic accusations to D&D players.


I find the analogy is as far off from what the rage is about as can be, D&D does not put forward itself as a historical simulation. The correct analogy would be closer if it were an outrage in the elf, dragon or bard community about how they are portrayed in D&D.

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People don't know/understand something, so it must be bad.


This is probably one of the arguments of the tribes - ie that the designer has not understood the conflict or the tribes' role in history.
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Leon Major
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Has anybody seen the people protesting this game? Are they even native Americans? Here in Oklahoma several tribes have adds on TV about their tribes but most of the time the people speaking do not even look like Indians! One add had a blond haired-blue eyed girl speaking for the tribe. I'm sure most of these people have some Indian blood in them. Yeah,enough to get on the rolls and collect the benefits!
I get the feeling when hearing spokesmen for the native Americans that they just want us to forget that they even existed. Don't use their names for spoting teams(Fighting Sioux) or make a game with them in it. I had never even heard of these small tribes in the articles. I was interested in the game before as it was a subject I know little about and it would make an excellent history lesson. Now, I am going to order it!
 
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Mattwran
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I really think the problem is that most people outside the wargame community have never even heard of the concept of a historical simulation or consim. When most people here the word 'boardgame' they think Monopoly, Risk, Clue, or disposable games based on movie franchises.
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Ronny Heinz
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Quote:
I find the analogy is as far off from what the rage is about as can be, D&D does not put forward itself as a historical simulation. The correct analogy would be closer if it were an outrage in the elf, dragon or bard community about how they are portrayed in D&D.


People see something they don't understand (i.e. this game or D&D) and hence they believe something which was never intended. The game does not glorify one or the other side. It tries just to simulate a conflict. In D&D it was similar, people pretended to be for example sorcerers. However, religious people thought the game would encourage teenagers to become satanists. They didn't grasp the idea of simulating something. I believe in this case it is the same, these people don't get the idea of simulating a conflict and why.
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Nico Solitander
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ponce wrote:
Has anybody seen the people protesting this game? Are they even native Americans?


I don't know - I haven't seen those that defend the game here either so I cannot vouch that they are pure Caucasian in direct descent from New England puritans either.

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Yeah,enough to get on the rolls and collect the benefits!


Yeah, they're right up there with the greedy half-breed shylocks roaming Europe and the US.... Julianne Jennings probably collects the benefits on top of her professor's salary and any grant she can get her greedy hands on....
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Nico Solitander
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Firepot wrote:


People see something they don't understand and hence they believe something which was never intended.


Absolutely, I think the argument is the same from both sides but the subject of what is not "understood" by the other is different to the extent that what is debated by the two sides are two widely different issues.

The way I'm reading what professor Jennings is saying (a quick google search will reveal that she has written on both the Pequot War and the King Philip’s War) - even if it's a very short quote and probably angled by the journalist - is that what the game reproduces (which she would not be able to say without having seen it) is a non-native's view on the war and Indians, and by putting the Indians (yet again) in the center of a violent context - it reproduces the already cemented imperialist view of the savage Indian - an image that they have been trying to shed for a long time - unfortunately it seems to stick as much as the modern "social benefit"-parasite view reproduced by another gentleman in this thread.

What Professor Jennings has missed of course is the abundance of board games that portrays the Pequot culture in a more nuanced way, away from the violence and savagery.

Perhaps the designer ought to send Professor Jennings a copy of the game/rules so that he would get a comment from a native historian on the events and the way he portrays it in his simulation? Only then could the game serve the purpose of being a medium for discussing the forgotten history of marginalized groups. I think MMP's comment in the aticle is sound: "We're interested in history. We don't believe in burying our heads in the sand because of the nature of the conflict," Hopefully that interest would span the history as depicted by both sides, it's a slippery slope as history is not an objective science. Very few wargames are able to do this, and that's why I love Twilight Struggle, which comes close.

I'm looking forward to try the game.
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Nico Solitander
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mattwran wrote:
I really think the problem is that most people outside the wargame community have never even heard of the concept of a historical simulation or consim. When most people here the word 'boardgame' they think Monopoly, Risk, Clue, or disposable games based on movie franchises.


Spot on! And the 'problem' of the wargame community is that they have never heard of the Pequots or their role in history outside of the King Philip’s War savagery - or at least that's how I'm reading Jenning's comment.
 
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Ronny Heinz
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As I said, I've never heard of this conflict. This game has aroused my interest in the conflict. Hence, I want to know more about both sides of the conflict. The people forget about this aspect of the game (or never thought about it).
 
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Glenn Martin
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mr_peabody wrote:
John Poniske wrote:
I am currently researching Toussaint Louverture and the slave rebellions in Haiti (1789-1804).


Holy cow - duck and cover!

I'm kidding, of course. I knew nothing of King Philip's War until I heard about your game. Now I want to learn more.


I agree with this. I know about Jamestown and Plymouth Rock and then I know about the New England colonies during the 7 years war and I know nothing in between.
 
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Leon Major
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Nico- how many American Indians do you know,work with or are in your family? If you don't think there are lots of people with very little Indian blood in them (I'm talking 1/8th to 1/16th) getting benefits you are full of it! Yes, I'll call them parasites. They take from the tribes and give very little back!
 
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Leo Zappa
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John Poniske wrote:
A street protest occurred against my King Philip's War design and a second article has been presented in the Cape Cod Times. The link follows

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2010...

In my response to the reporter, I thanked her for keeping her word in presenting a more balanced piece. I understand that those who are angered by the game have to be approached and quoted, but at least this time the newspaper offered the true purpose of the game. The more I read about the arguments against KPW the more I agree with my wife, "Some people refuse to be confused by the facts!"


These continued "protests" are embarrassing. The lack of knowledge about the motivations of people who wargame is evident in these comments:

"It's pretty disturbing to think that they would actually make a game of a very horrific history that started with the King Philip's War," said Jim Peters, executive director of the Massachusetts Commission on Indian Affairs and a member of the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe who has also recently waged a battle against the Indian symbolism in the state seal. "It's just an ongoing insult to the indigenous people of this country."

"I don't think (Poniske) took into consideration that the descendents of the people that he wishes to exterminate in his game are still here," Jennings said.

"It's an awful idea for them to do," said Ellie Page, historian for the Pocasset Wampanoag tribe of Fall River. "To make a game out of it is to diminish the sacrifice that these people had to go through at that time."


As I stated in another thread on this unfortunate situation, I am 1/8 Native American, and I can't find anything remotely troubling about this game. It protrays a historical fact, period. How refreshing it would be if the alleged "historians" quoted in the article would actually have taken the time to research just what wargaming is, the motivations behind the design and play of the games, and perhaps even contacted the designer to discuss their concerns. But no, it's far easier to make uninformed, misguided, and frankly, as I said earlier, embarrassing comments about something (the game) of which they know nothing about.

Now, speaking to heritage, I'm 3/4 Italian, and I also never had a problem with this game either:

...so perhaps I'm simply not sufficiently in touch with my heritage to feel the proper sense of outrage about all of these games! I shall endeavor to become more enraged by all of these slights to my bloodlines!

BTW - I'm also 1/8 Irish, but I couldn't find a game sufficiently insulting to this portion of my heritage to mention. If anyone knows of a game depicting a historical aspect of Ireland in such a way that I could get really angry about it, please let me know and I will become suitably upset. Thanks!
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Leo Zappa
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ponce wrote:
Nico- how many American Indians do you know,work with or are in your family? If you don't think there are lots of people with very little Indian blood in them (I'm talking 1/8th to 1/16th) getting benefits you are full of it! Yes, I'll call them parasites. They take from the tribes and give very little back!


I've heard of this as well. I'm 1/8 but it never even occurred to me to actually try to tap into any of benefits. I've never bothered to get a CIB (Certificate of Indian Blood) and frankly, never gave it much thought. A few years ago I heard about people like those you describe trying to tap into casino revenue - I thought that was pretty low. As you say, unless one is giving back to the tribe, they shouldn't be putting their hand out.
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Well, this has convinced me that I am now on pre-order.

Interestingly, my son is doing a Senior Class Project on the subject of wargaming - and this controversy fits his topic perfectly.
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Nico Solitander
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desertfox2004 wrote:


As I stated in another thread on this unfortunate situation, I am 1/8 Native American, and I can't find anything remotely troubling about this game. It protrays a historical fact, period. How refreshing it would be if the alleged "historians" quoted in the article would actually have taken the time to research just what wargaming is, the motivations behind the design and play of the games, and perhaps even contacted the designer to discuss their concerns.


As said elsewhere, there are others who have taken some time to look at our hobby - it probably condenses their misgivings more than those paragraphs.

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2010/03/protesting-king-philip...

WHile I do not agree there's some interesting questions there

Quote:

BTW - I'm also 1/8 Irish, but I couldn't find a game sufficiently insulting to this portion of my heritage to mention. If anyone knows of a game depicting a historical aspect of Ireland in such a way that I could get really angry about it, please let me know and I will become suitably upset. Thanks!


Well, you might ask yourself why there are no historical simulations of the IRA, UDA and British situation - the answer would be part of the original critique I suspect.
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Quote:
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desertfox2004 wrote:


As I stated in another thread on this unfortunate situation, I am 1/8 Native American, and I can't find anything remotely troubling about this game. It protrays a historical fact, period. How refreshing it would be if the alleged "historians" quoted in the article would actually have taken the time to research just what wargaming is, the motivations behind the design and play of the games, and perhaps even contacted the designer to discuss their concerns.




As said elsewhere, there are others who have taken some time to look at our hobby - it probably condenses their misgivings more than those paragraphs.

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2010/03/protesting-king-philip...

WHile I do not agree there's some interesting questions there


I read that snippet as well and didn't see anything any more helpful or enlightening than I saw in the quotes I noted earlier. I still think that people like those quoted in the article remain willfully ignorant of the motivations behind wargaming, both in this specific instance, and in general. It reminds me of religious organizations that immediately criticize movies or books dealing with religious subjects without having even seen the movie or read the book first. I also think the people quoted in the article are far too quick to take offense at slights, both real and imagined, and tend to look for reasons to become enraged.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

BTW - I'm also 1/8 Irish, but I couldn't find a game sufficiently insulting to this portion of my heritage to mention. If anyone knows of a game depicting a historical aspect of Ireland in such a way that I could get really angry about it, please let me know and I will become suitably upset. Thanks!



Well, you might ask yourself why there are no historical simulations of the IRA, UDA and British situation - the answer would be part of the original critique I suspect.


I imagine the actual reason I couldn't find a game on the subject of the Troubles is that there wouldn't be much of a wargame there. Other than protests and political clashes mixed with random shootings and bombings, there's nothing there that would make good material for a wargame. A political CDG in the vein of "Twilight Struggle" on the other hand, might be quite viable, were someone to take up the design challenge.
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