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Subject: Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla No Ship Math Trade Discussion rss

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Alan Reeve
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The Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla is just weeks away and we're trying to have a math trade at each of these events with this being the 2nd ever so...

Request GeekList: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/53338/spring-2010-gami...

Trade GeekList: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/53599/spring-2010-gami...

If you are participating in this math trade use of the OWLG (Online Want List Generator) s required for creating your want list(s) (please remember to tip JeffyJeff some GG for his support).

If you have never used the OWLG before, please read this: http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/OLWLG

And if you're still unsure, feel free to ask questions in the discussion thread. It's not hard... really... the core idea is that you post stuff you are willing to trade and then choose things others have listed that you'd be willing to trade items for. You'll never be forced to give something away and get something you didn't hand pick! And if there's nothing you want for a given title you don't have to trade it.

Key dates (all times CENTRAL TIME)

Open for posting games: Thursday, April 1st, 10pm to Wednesday, April 7th, 10pm.

Want list submission period: Wednesday, April 7th, 10pm to Wednesday, April 14th at 10pm.

Want lists and results will be posted shortly thereafter.

Please note that errors made by you will NOT invalidate the results. You will be expected to honor your trades even if you made a mistake, so please carefully review your wants list(s) before submitting them. You can make changes BEFORE the end of the submission period but NOT after it.

This event is open to anyone who wants to participate, but please note that this is a no-ship event. We will be meeting up on Saturday, April 24th around 2pm to exchange games traded and you'll either need to be in attendance or have someone proxy (drop off and pick up) for you at the meet-up.

Please do not delete items or sweeteners once you have listed them. You can always submit a blank want list for an entry if you've traded it away before the deadline.

OK - some simple rules - please take a few minutes to read them:

* This is a no-shipping event. All exchanges are to be made at the Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla at the designated time with rare exception. If you cannot attend in person, you can still participate but you must find someone who is willing to act as you proxy at the convention, taking your games there for you and picking up your new games.

* Gift certificates, Geekgold (GG), DVDs, computer games and other relevant items of interest are all permitted, but be reasonable. If you list items nobody is interested in then you're wasting your time.

* Non-game entries must be added as "Outside the Scope of BGG" (game id 23953), Miscellaneous Game Merchandise (game id 22104) or "Miscellaneous Game Accessory" (game id 5985). Please also note the use of the "alt name" tag that the OWLG supports in order to properly view your items over there.

* If you are offering an expansion for which there is no entry in BGG (for instance expansion cards handed out at Essen) and NOT the base game, please use "Miscellaneous Game Accessory" to help avoid confusion.

* You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition (components and box), language and edition of your item in the description. This includes sweeteners if they are physical items (i.e. not GG).

* For games not brand new (in shrink) you must inventory the game's components and list anything missing. Do not assume it's complete. Also, remember that just because something is "new in shrink" that doesn't mean that you shouldn't disclose any dings. It might not matter to you, but it matters to some people.

* You are expected to periodically check during the item submission period, and preferably during the want list submission period, to see if anyone has commented on your entries. People often ask questions of items - most commonly because you have forgotten to state a version, language or shipping policy - and you should check in to address such questions in a timely manner should they arise, so that everyone then has the correct information available.

This is a very easy thing to do. Just click on "My Geek", then "Contributions" and finally on "GeekList Items". You will then be able to see your items without having to find them in the trade GeekList along with any comments that people have made. You will only need to go back to the trade GeekList to make adjustments or answer questions if there were any.

* I would encourage people to try to AVOID the use of sweeteners / package deals. I tend to think people aren't going to want to trade Great Game X for Crappy Games A, B, C, D, and E and I'd rather see more trades. Ok, perhaps Crappy is a bit harsh... let's say "Tanga Game That Sold For $1.99 Last October But Is Still A Fun Game". I'm not mandating that as we're all able to decide how to create and execute trades ourselves, but tend to think it would be more reasonable to try to trade those smaller games for something roughly on par with said item.


Other useful information

OWLG Metric Used: USER-TRADING Seed=12345 Iterations=100

Want list submission

You can start creating your want lists any time after the start of the event.

Please note that it's best to work on your want lists and submit them early - you can always make changes and resubmit later. This will prevent you from being left out if you forget the deadline.

Submissions may be made at any time after 10pm on the 7th. If you will be unavailable during the want list submission period but still wish to participate, contact me directly and we can discuss the possibility of you submitting early.

Remember that you may have saved your want lists, but they have NOT been submitted until you press the green button in step 4 and received a confirming Geekmail.

You are not obliged to trade anything you put up for offer. If you offer a game, but see nothing that you are willing to accept for it in trade, you can submit a blank want list for it, or not submit one at all. If, however, you do submit a want list for a game, then it is expected that you will honor any trade that the TradeMaximizer comes up with. You will not receive anything you did not list as acceptable for the game(s) you have offered, so it is important to check your want lists when they are posted publicly (see above dates), to correct any errors.

Please note: Sometimes real life intrudes on us unexpectedly. If I'm an hour late posting something, please bear with me. Running one of these can be a fair bit of work, and running it without the OLWLG is twice as much work.

So enter lots of items and have fun! And a big "thanks!" to anglotiger whose verbage has been somewhat copied here for his help and willingness to answer questions with respect to me running my first math trade.
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Alan Reeve
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Reserved - Wants Lists Needed
Now that everyone has submitted a wants list we're at

Num trades = 50 of 159 items (31.4%)

Results will be declared tomorrow (Wednesday) shortly after 10 PM. Feel free to update wants lists until then.
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Alan Reeve
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Reserved - Results
And the results...

http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/trades-summary.cgi?listid=...
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Cate
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Re: Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla Math Trade Discussion
Oh Alan! Thank you for taking this on! It is a relief that someone stepped up to the plate on this when I could not.

Having said that... I would like to participate in this Math Trade but I need a proxy. My Mom is having surgery next week (a complete shoulder replacement) and I will be taking care of her most of next month.

I will not put more than a handful of games up. So this will be light work.

Any one?
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Dan S
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Re: Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla Math Trade Discussion
Would it be possible to have the game exchange a little earlier than 7 pm? I want to participate in this math trade but have no idea if I will be sticking around that long.
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Alan Reeve
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Re: Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla Math Trade Discussion
GoTeamVenture wrote:
Would it be possible to have the game exchange a little earlier than 7 pm? I want to participate in this math trade but have no idea if I will be sticking around that long.

I think ultimately you can arrange your trades whenever you want to indepent of any time. I'm not planning on checking games off a list as they are traded/supervising the trades. 7 pm was suggested by Brent to keep the number of stray games floating around to a minumum while vendors are present. I'd think mid-day would be better for most folks if Brent is ok with that... but ultimately people can do their trades whenever they want.

Quite frankly I think it would be ideal to have a "math traders" section of parking and we could just trunk trade everything as I was in / out 6-7 times with my last math trade. But that's just a dream...
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Brent Cunningham
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Re: Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla Math Trade Discussion
adreeve wrote:
GoTeamVenture wrote:
Would it be possible to have the game exchange a little earlier than 7 pm? I want to participate in this math trade but have no idea if I will be sticking around that long.

I think ultimately you can arrange your trades whenever you want to indepent of any time. I'm not planning on checking games off a list as they are traded/supervising the trades. 7 pm was suggested by Brent to keep the number of stray games floating around to a minumum while vendors are present. I'd think mid-day would be better for most folks if Brent is ok with that... but ultimately people can do their trades whenever they want.

Quite frankly I think it would be ideal to have a "math traders" section of parking and we could just trunk trade everything as I was in / out 6-7 times with my last math trade. But that's just a dream...


Alan, geekmail sent. I think my other one was just mis-read. We certainly want to make the trade as conducive to the attendees as possible.

That said, I would prefer that a particular "trade time" was set up, with the stipulation that attendees can trade earlier if they would like to, or outside if they would prefer. What I would like to avoid is several people bringing large tubs or boxes of games in and out throughout the day.

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Alan Reeve
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Re: Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla Math Trade Discussion
As Brent said... this is MY error. I somehow misread Brent's message saying that "all trades should happen at 2 pm and maybe people could bring their games in 5 mins before" as "it should happen after 5 pm". SO... I've changed this to 2 pm and noted that we'd prefer all trades to happen then vs. lots of stray games floating around.

- Alan

historyguy71 wrote:
adreeve wrote:
GoTeamVenture wrote:
Would it be possible to have the game exchange a little earlier than 7 pm? I want to participate in this math trade but have no idea if I will be sticking around that long.

I think ultimately you can arrange your trades whenever you want to indepent of any time. I'm not planning on checking games off a list as they are traded/supervising the trades. 7 pm was suggested by Brent to keep the number of stray games floating around to a minumum while vendors are present. I'd think mid-day would be better for most folks if Brent is ok with that... but ultimately people can do their trades whenever they want.

Quite frankly I think it would be ideal to have a "math traders" section of parking and we could just trunk trade everything as I was in / out 6-7 times with my last math trade. But that's just a dream...


Alan, geekmail sent. I think my other one was just mis-read. We certainly want to make the trade as conducive to the attendees as possible.

That said, I would prefer that a particular "trade time" was set up, with the stipulation that attendees can trade earlier if they would like to, or outside if they would prefer. What I would like to avoid is several people bringing large tubs or boxes of games in and out throughout the day.

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Todd Sweet
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Re: Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla Math Trade Discussion
What exactly does the following mean from your post above?

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I'm still in the process of choosing metrics for this trade.

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Ted McManus
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Re: Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla Math Trade Discussion
Suggestion: Please indicate "No-Ship" in the trade title.

Math trades often have colorful names and "Spring 2010 Gaming Hoopla" is easily mistaken as the name of a general math trade rather than a localized no-ship trade.

While it can be inferred earlier by an attentive reader, the key phrase "no-ship" does not appear until paragraph 12.

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Alan Reeve
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kinbote wrote:
Suggestion: Please indicate "No-Ship" in the trade title.

Thanks for the great suggestion. Done!
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Alan Reeve
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TMJJS wrote:
What exactly does the following mean from your post above?

Other useful information

I'm still in the process of choosing metrics for this trade.


I'm not really sure how to answer this. Obviously it means I haven't chosen metrics yet... if you don't know what metrics are you can read about them in the math trade FAQ (at least I'd hope they're there). I just don't want to blindly copy metrics others have used without considering their impact on the trade results myself. For example, we could make it so involvement is the priority and trying to make sure everyone gets a trade is job one... I'd rather have more trades as involvement would favor trying to make one person's A for B trade happen if that's all they entered. In any event that will all be decided before the trade list starts.

What's funny to me is I suspect I could have left that line out (but I'm trying to be up front with how the math trade works as I think most do) and nobody would have batted an eye.
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Alan Reeve
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Cate108 wrote:
Oh Alan! Thank you for taking this on! It is a relief that someone stepped up to the plate on this when I could not.

Having said that... I would like to participate in this Math Trade but I need a proxy. My Mom is having surgery next week (a complete shoulder replacement) and I will be taking care of her most of next month.

I will not put more than a handful of games up. So this will be light work.

Any one?

And that brings up a great point...

Anyone willing to proxy for others in your area that aren't coming... if you could please announce that here and let those in your area that you feel would benefit know that would be most appreciated. The more participation -> the better the trade.

I'll also add that if you are proxying you may also want to set your limits... last time I proxied we probably couldn't have fit another game in the car (we had 4 people's stuff plus 2 people's overnight stuff and personal games for running events). Just something to be aware of :-)

Any help with expanding the scope of the trade is appreciated!
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Jeff Michaud
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adreeve wrote:
[I'm not really sure how to answer this. Obviously it means I haven't chosen metrics yet... if you don't know what metrics are you can read about them in the math trade FAQ (at least I'd hope they're there). I just don't want to blindly copy metrics others have used without considering their impact on the trade results myself. For example, we could make it so involvement is the priority and trying to make sure everyone gets a trade is job one... I'd rather have more trades as involvement would favor trying to make one person's A for B trade happen if that's all they entered. In any event that will all be decided before the trade list starts.
I've just updated the wiki TradeMaximizer. There are really only two relevant metric's... the default one which is sum of squares of the chain sizes... the idea behind this is to use a result set that has smaller chain sizes (in case for some reason you had to invalidate a chain from the results because it's clear someone will be breaking the chain and a fix can't be made... this is not very common these days as errors in want lists are less). The other one is Users-Trading... this one is looking for a result where as many folks as possible are getting at least one trade.

Note that in all cases, whether using ITERATIONS or not, and regardless of METRIC (which is only relevant if ITERATIONS is more than 1), it will not change the number of items trading. Unless you play with nontrade-cost (not recommended) TradeMax will in every single result set it looks at, be looking at the same number of items trading (which is the absolute max possible).
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:C.h.r.i.s. M.c.G.o.w.a.n:
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I can proxy for people who get the games to me at Games Plus in Mount Prospect, Illinois (Northwest Suburb) on a Thursday night of open gaming. I work in Cicero, IL (West side of Chicago - just south of Hawthorn Park). So if you can get the games to me there that is option #2.

All games being proxied on your behalf should include a post it note with : Game name, a from line, and deliver to line. This is my peronsonal requirement to make my job easier when handing out games.

Example;

Caylus
From: BGG user JeffyJeff - Jeff M (include real name if known and available)
To: BGG user UsanaChris - Chris McGowan

I will also deliver games to Games Plus in Mount Prospect or have them available in Cicero, IL.

Limit? Keep it reasonable - I drive a Monte Carlo so we're limited by space in the vehicle. If you're trading 12+ games, then you might need to drive up and check out the Hoopla in person.
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Alan Reeve
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Math trade submissions are now open... had to start it before 10 PM because I forgot that tonight is game night.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/508480/spring-2010-gamin...

- Thanks, Alan
 
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After Dan's generous offer of a proxy if I need it, I've added several items.

Thanks Dan!
 
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I'll be going to the Hoopla, so I can assist with the proxying.
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Joel Gabelman
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First timer help!
So I'm a bit confused how to do this. Quoted from the webpage:

Open for posting games: Thursday, April 1st, 10pm to Wednesday, April 7th, 10pm.

Want list submission period: Wednesday, April 7th, 10pm to Wednesday, April 14th at 10pm.

I'm assuming this means I first post games I have for trade? Next week I'm supposed to post games I want for trade?


How do I do this? I see two links for:
1) Request Geeklist and
2) Trade Geeklist

I'm just a little confused as to what links I click first. I understand a little the OWLG.

Can someone walk me through the steps?

e.g. (I don't know if this is accurate or not)

1. First post what you HAVE(you have until 4/07/10)
a) Click on XXXX
b) Follow link XXX to XXX and post games you want etc....

2. On 4/07/10, you post the games you WANT in a trade
a) click on XXX
b) Import from BGG the games you WANT in a trade by clicking on XXX and then clicking on XXX, etc....

Thanks for the help!

-JRG

 
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Todd Sweet
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I'll try to answer!

elmsley4 wrote:
So I'm a bit confused how to do this. Quoted from the webpage:

Open for posting games: Thursday, April 1st, 10pm to Wednesday, April 7th, 10pm.

Want list submission period: Wednesday, April 7th, 10pm to Wednesday, April 14th at 10pm.

I'm assuming this means I first post games I have for trade? Next week I'm supposed to post games I want for trade?

Yes, you go to the games for trade list and add items (games) that you are willing to trade away. After Wednesday, you will use the OWLG, to say want games you want from the list posted for each of the games you listed.

elmsley4 wrote:
How do I do this? I see two links for:
1) Request Geeklist and
2) Trade Geeklist

Request was for people to post what they wanted in the trade list. Use the trade list.

elmsley4 wrote:
I'm just a little confused as to what links I click first. I understand a little the OWLG.

The OWLG won't be available until after the posting deadline as I understand. Once it's available, the other geeklist tutorial along with trail and error should get you through it.

elmsley4 wrote:
Can someone walk me through the steps?

e.g. (I don't know if this is accurate or not)

1. First post what you HAVE(you have until 4/07/10)
a) Click on XXXX
b) Follow link XXX to XXX and post games you want etc....

2. On 4/07/10, you post the games you WANT in a trade
a) click on XXX
b) Import from BGG the games you WANT in a trade by clicking on XXX and then clicking on XXX, etc....

1) Add games to the Trade GeekList
2) Use OWLG to match the games you are trading to games you want after April 7th

elmsley4 wrote:
Thanks for the help!

-JRG


Hope that helps some!
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Alan Reeve
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TMJJS wrote:
elmsley4 wrote:
I'm just a little confused as to what links I click first. I understand a little the OWLG.

The OWLG won't be available until after the posting deadline as I understand. Once it's available, the other geeklist tutorial along with trail and error should get you through it.

The OWLG is available at

http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/

and should be available now. First thing you need to do is go there, enter your BGG ID, and it'll geekmail you a link to use for your trading. You'll them be able to select the Spring Hoopla 2010 Math Trade, see all the items listed and 'add' them to your wants list (you have to select at least one item you'd give), and then the next step presents your 'gives' vs. 'wants' as a grid and you have to check off boxes that correspond to what game you'll give (across the top) and what games you'd want for this (along the side).

It's admittedly a bit confusing at first, but all makes sense pretty quickly...

Update: One thing that ISN'T active until the 'add items to trade' list part of a math trade is complete is the ability to submit your wants. You can build it, but not submit it. Also, it's not a bad idea to wait until everything is in because of the built in duplicate protection feature. If someone adds a second copy of something late in the trade and you've started working on your wants then it because more work to update this... with the built in duplicate protection the OWLG automatically creates the dummy duplicate items that correspond to 2+ of the same item you want.
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Alan Reeve
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With less than 24 hours to go this is shaping up to be a rather tiny math trade. I suspect the big F&I trade just 2 months ago and Easter weekend have had something to do with it. If there's something you think I could have done better then I'm all ears.

In any event... get those games listed now or forever hold your peace (or, at least until the next math trade)
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:C.h.r.i.s. M.c.G.o.w.a.n:
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We are a bunch of procrastinators - I'll have some more listed later today.

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adreeve wrote:
With less than 24 hours to go this is shaping up to be a rather tiny math trade. I suspect the big F&I trade just 2 months ago and Easter weekend have had something to do with it. If there's something you think I could have done better then I'm all ears.

I'll take a guess: It seems like more people are needing proxy's than usual - so rather than burden the 1 or 2 people willing to proxy, perhaps some folks are just holding off until the next MT.
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I think that you and Albert have both hit on things here, and I don't think any of this is anyone's fault.

1) The Fire & Ice math trade depleted a lot of people's trade stock (plus some of us sold things that didn't trade in the auction there).

2) People made lots of trades. For the occasional trader, as many in that event were, it means they had lots of new things to get to the table and perhaps they aren't done with that yet (I have a large backlog myself).

3) A lot of people who went to Fire & Ice aren't coming to the Hoopla, so they need a proxy. For the people in Milwaukee, it might be a question of, as Albert has suggested, not wanting to overburden the two people who have offered to proxy, but for others there may not be someone from their area who can act as a proxy.

4) At least one person who would otherwise be adding many items can't participate due to family reasons.

The only thing you could really do, and perhaps you already did this, would be to send a GM to the F&I MT participants to let them know this was happening. For that event, I sent out several GMs to people I knew from previous local trades or gaming gatherings and mentioned it to them. In a few cases they didn't know there was a trade taking place and were glad that I let them know so that they, and their friends, could take part. The work for a local MT is actually a lot more than for a national or international one IMO, even though it's smaller.
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