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Subject: Crokinole for US Market PRODUCED! Preorder SOLD OUT. Shipped 8/30/10... preorder 2nd wave now! rss

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Lee Godwin
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I've been perusing various Crokinole sites to answer various questions I've had and came across some info that directly relates to the statements and questions many have made regarding the varying speeds of the discs. Evidently, the two sides of the discs are NOT made the same, - on purpose. One side is supposed to be concave and the other convex. This is to provide more drag (slower) or less drag (faster) for those advanced enough to utilize this subtlety to finesse their shots and, therefore, more control. So, there is SUPPOSED to be a fast side and a slow side.

As an example, Mr. Crokinole (http://www.crokinole.com/) actually specifies this with their discs.

"Guaranteed concave on one side, convex on the other side (not noticeable to the eye). Give your disc a spin before each shot. Then select a fast 'take out' shot or a slow 'dragger' shot. This option adds a new dimension and strategy to the game".

Whether the discs we've been provided with our Mayday boards have been made with this apparently "standard" attribute, I don't know. It does seem so, though.
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Erik Henry
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Per Seth here:

"The pucks will be nicely finished and we were unable to make them convex/concave. Well China was unable."



I am NOT an experienced crokinole player, but when I spin the discs as shown in the video I seem to notice much more disc-to-disc variation than differences between the sides. Some discs spin smoothly and other feel more gritty. I'll have to try some of the treatments that Seth recommends above.
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Jack Francisco
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Matt,

You asked me to post a pic with with bolts with the black tubing. Here is my board, waxed (3 coats) and everything.



I think it came out pretty good and I'm with you in that I like the sound the tubing makes.

-Jack

tasajara wrote:
Bilben04 wrote:
Paul beat me to it in the posting, but I did the exact same thing as him. Mainly I just didn't like the look of the screws and tubing that shipped with the board. The screws I got are the same size as his, they're black and took an allen wrench to screw in. The tubing is clear and I cut one-half inch lengths; I think it looks way better. And my kids love the sound made when the discs hit the posts.

UvulaBob wrote:
There's a lot of info being tossed around, but for what it's worth, I went to Home Depot and got some 10-24 x 1" machine screws with some vinyl tubing from their plubming section and it works great. It's a little bit more bouncy than the wood pegs, not nearly as bouncy as the rubber, and the screws fit in the holes perfectly.


I did more or less the same as Paul (black screws, allen wrench top) but used 1/4" black tubing used for drip irrigation (which I already had lying around the house). I love the look of it and it has an interesting sound as well, though not quite as bouncy as the rubber surgical tubing, which is fine for me.

EDIT: Pics added...


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-matt s.
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senorcoo wrote:
Matt,

You asked me to post a pic with with bolts with the black tubing. Here is my board, waxed (3 coats) and everything.


Nice! Looks great Jack!
 
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Jack Francisco
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Thanks. I ended up discovering a couple of coffee cup stains after all, but only if you look at it at an angle. Still, for $100, I think I'll get my money's worth out of it. My 4 year-old daughter went on a flicking rampage. She seems like a natural at hitting the center shot.
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Lee Godwin
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Erik17 wrote:
Per Seth here:

"The pucks will be nicely finished and we were unable to make them convex/concave. Well China was unable."



I am NOT an experienced crokinole player, but when I spin the discs as shown in the video I seem to notice much more disc-to-disc variation than differences between the sides. Some discs spin smoothly and other feel more gritty. I'll have to try some of the treatments that Seth recommends above.


Well, then I guess we all need to understand that the Mayday discs are NOT the standard Crokinole discs that have both concave and convex sides, but are of a quality that are still more than fine for all beginners. Having checked around, the higher quality discs are rather inexpensive and can be acquired many places online for those wanting the truer responding discs.
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Bryan Martin
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llc3guys wrote:
Erik17 wrote:
Per Seth here:

"The pucks will be nicely finished and we were unable to make them convex/concave. Well China was unable."



I am NOT an experienced crokinole player, but when I spin the discs as shown in the video I seem to notice much more disc-to-disc variation than differences between the sides. Some discs spin smoothly and other feel more gritty. I'll have to try some of the treatments that Seth recommends above.


Well, then I guess we all need to understand that the Mayday discs are NOT the standard Crokinole discs that have both concave and convex sides, but are of a quality that are still more than fine for all beginners. Having checked around, the higher quality discs are rather inexpensive and can be acquired many places online for those wanting the truer responding discs.


I'd have to say that the discs are one of the things I'm most disappointed in. The finish is so inconsistent between the discs that there is no way to know how hard or soft to flick them for each shot.
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Lee Godwin
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To obtain regulation discs.

Helinski doesn't even make their own discs because they say it's too difficult. Here's where they get theirs from: http://store.workshopsupply.com/catalogue/index.php?cPath=34...

I don't know if any of the other Crokinole manufacturers actually make their own discs or simply just obtain them from the above site, as well.
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Jeff Barrett
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llc3guys wrote:
To obtain regulation discs.

Helinski doesn't even make their own discs because they say it's too difficult. Here's where they get theirs from: http://store.workshopsupply.com/catalogue/index.php?cPath=34...

I don't know if any of the other Crokinole manufacturers actually make their own discs or simply just obtain them from the above site, as well.


Some of the prior crokinole discussions in the forums have also cited Willards (http://www.crokinolegame.ca/crokinole_accessories.htm) as a cost-effective source for tournament-quality discs.

They are a bit more expensive than Workshop Supply, but supposedly the discs are of higher quality as well. (At least that's what some of the prior folks who have switched to them from the Workshop Supply discs have said.)

I happened to order some today, so I know he has them in stock at the moment in six colors: red, green, blue, yellow, black and natural.
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Nicholas Vitek
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I have some coming from Workshop Supply. Once I get them, I'll let people know how they react with the board and make up for any of the minor blemishes my board has. I'll probably do it in another thread to keep this one moving on track.
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Robert Ell
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I ordered some disks from Willard too. The discs provided by Mayday are really inconsistent. I'm hoping the discs are the issue and not the board.
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Lee Godwin
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Well, here ya' go. After delving further into the world of Crokinole discs, here's what I found out.

***Regarding Willard discs: Since they don't outright say the their discs are the convex/concave WCC tournament discs, I sent them an email for clarification. Here is their response.

Hello,
Thank you for your email.
My discs are the flat type.
I compensate this with extra finish when they are made. This leaves them very smooth and slide easily.
No I definetly do not get my crokinole discs from any retail/wholesale seller.
My crokinole discs are made with my equipment to my specs at another location.
Please stay in touch.
Willard

***Further, as I had previously posted, Helinski does have the WCC tournament discs but does not make them. They purchase them from Workshop Supply.
http://store.workshopsupply.com/catalogue/index.php?cPath=34...
But, after checking more carefully, I found they don't make them, either. They have them made for them by an unnamed company that I cannot find. Here it is in their own words.

"We can tell you a couple things about our discs. They are made exclusively for us by one of the oldest and best turning companies. We specify they use the best hard maple for their manufacture because hard maple is the best wood for this type of playing piece."

***This radically narrows it down. So far, Helinski sells the discs they get from Woodshop Supply who, in turn, gets them from an unknown private and exclusive manufacturer. Willard does NOT carry the convex/concave discs, but only the flat.
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Lee Fisher
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llc3guys wrote:
Well, here ya' go. After delving further into the world of Crokinole discs, here's what I found out.

***Regarding Willard discs: Since they don't outright say the their discs are the convex/concave WCC tournament discs, I sent them an email for clarification. Here is their response.

Hello,
Thank you for your email.
My discs are the flat type.
I compensate this with extra finish when they are made. This leaves them very smooth and slide easily.
No I definetly do not get my crokinole discs from any retail/wholesale seller.
My crokinole discs are made with my equipment to my specs at another location.
Please stay in touch.
Willard

***Further, as I had previously posted, Helinski does have the WCC tournament discs but does not make them. They purchase them from Workshop Supply.
http://store.workshopsupply.com/catalogue/index.php?cPath=34...
But, after checking more carefully, I found they don't make them, either. They have them made for them by an unnamed company that I cannot find. Here it is in their own words.

"We can tell you a couple things about our discs. They are made exclusively for us by one of the oldest and best turning companies. We specify they use the best hard maple for their manufacture because hard maple is the best wood for this type of playing piece."

***This radically narrows it down. So far, Helinski sells the discs they get from Woodshop Supply who, in turn, gets them from an unknown private and exclusive manufacturer. Willard does NOT carry the convex/concave discs, but only the flat.


So who does Mr. Crokinole's?
 
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Lee Godwin
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lfisher wrote:
So who does Mr. Crokinole's?


Evidently, Mr. crokinole carries the convex/concave discs but appears to also have them made elsewhere. The WCC site refers everyone to http://www.crokinoledepot.com/catalog/ for Crokinole related items. Whether they actually make their own or have them manufactured for them, I don't know. Maybe someone else has some verifiable insight.
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Richard Morris
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Elltrain wrote:
I ordered some disks from Willard too. The discs provided by Mayday are really inconsistent. I'm hoping the discs are the issue and not the board.

FWIW, I have a WIllard board and have never noticed any problem with the discs.
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Jeff Barrett
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llc3guys wrote:
Well, here ya' go. After delving further into the world of Crokinole discs, here's what I found out.

***Regarding Willard discs: Since they don't outright say the their discs are the convex/concave WCC tournament discs, I sent them an email for clarification. Here is their response.

Hello,
Thank you for your email.
My discs are the flat type.
I compensate this with extra finish when they are made. This leaves them very smooth and slide easily.
No I definetly do not get my crokinole discs from any retail/wholesale seller.
My crokinole discs are made with my equipment to my specs at another location.
Please stay in touch.
Willard.


This caught me completely by surprise, as I had mistakenly assumed they were convex/concave based on the Willard web site's assertion: "These same game pieces are used at the World Crokinole Championships."

I'm sure they are of excellent quality, but I'm pretty sure I want the convex/concave type. Hopefully Willard hasn't already shipped my order...

[Edit: Willard has already shipped my discs, and while he kindly offered to let me return them due to my confusion over the convex vs. flat issue, I've decided to keep them. I'll post additional comments once I've tried them out.]
 
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Jeff Barrett
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By the way, how can all of these different places carry the "same discs used at the World Crokinole Championships" and yet some are convex/concave and some are flat? Which is the WCC standard?
Is there even a standard to begin with?
 
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Lee Godwin
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grison wrote:
By the way, how can all of these different places carry the "same discs used at the World Crokinole Championships" and yet some are convex/concave and some are flat? Which is the WCC standard?
Is there even a standard to begin with?


The WCC website, http://www.worldcrokinole.com/ , at the bottom of the page refers everyone to only one site, http://www.crokinoledepot.com/catalog/ , for all WCC products and they only carry two types of discs, http://crokinoledepot.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2, (standard Crokinole discs and small Crokinole discs). The "standard" Crokinole discs, http://crokinoledepot.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2&p... , states: "Slightly concave on one side and convex on the other. By being concave and convex you can acheive better spin and a more consistant speed. These are the same discs that are used at the World Crokinole Championship." Therefore, there is a WCC standard for discs and these are the ones.

***NOTE***
Either the other Crokinole sites that make allusions to their discs as the ones being used at WCC are purposely mistaken -or- they are obtaining them from either Crokinole Depot -or- Crokinole Depot's supplier -or- were possibly used some previous year before they were standardized.
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Lee Godwin
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OK,...after spending the last few days aggravatingly chewing on what should be the last word on Crokinole discs (at least until things are someday regulated better), here is the insider's info on what's really going on.

I sent off an email to WCC (World Crokinole Championship) and was surprisingly answered by Brian Cook. Yeah, THAT Brian Cook, - 3 time WCC winner and 2nd this year. How cool is that? He is in a rather unique position as he is a player and on the WCC Committee, as well. I wanted to verify what seemed moot, that the standard in discs are what is sold via Crokinole Depot (linked by their own website as the ONLY authorized distributor af all things WCC.

And, here the journey began, - for us both.

***Instead of giving excerpts from our emails, for complete clarity, I have chosen to include them in their entirety.

My Email:
Can you please clarify something for me. A lot of us have been talking online about the specifics of Crokinole discs. Which are used at the WCC, - convex/concave discs or flat discs? The flaft discs can be found many places online, but I've only found the convex/concave ones at Woodshop Supply. Everyone else (Helinski, etc) seems to purchase them there , as well. Are there other sites where they can be purchased or is Woodshop Supply all there is?

***I didn't want to list any of the few others that stated (or alluded) that they sold C/C discs. As far as I knew, they were ALL getting them from Crokinole Depot (WCC official product site) or Woodshop Supply's unknown supplier, - and I was trying to be brief.

Brian Cook:
Hi, we use discs that are slightly convex/concave. All of our boards and discs are made by Willard Martin in Elmira, Ontario. You can order pieces from him through his website - http://www.crokinolegame.ca/crokinole_accessories.htm.
Brian

***Now, I'm blown away. In a previous post, I included the entire email response by Willard Martin where I had asked point blank if his discs were C/C or "flat" discs. His response is quoted in the previous posting by me.
***Simple logic. --- If Crokinole Depot is the ONLY authorized distributor of WCC boards and discs, and Crokinole Depot explicitely states their discs are the same used at the WCC and ARE C/C discs, then the Wcc standard discs have to be C/C discs. Simple,...right? Wrong! What's going on?

My Email:
This is exactly what is causing all the confusion. The site you refer everyone to for WCC boards and accessories is Crokinole Depot. Crokinole Depot only sells one standard size disc which it specifies as the ones used at WCC and as being concave/convex. A few days prior to emailing my original question to you, I sent an email to Willard Martin asking whether his discs were these concave/convex types of discs. He said they were NOT, but were simply made flat with extra finish. Here is the email he sent back to me.

Hello,
Thank you for your email.
My discs are the flat type.
I compensate this with extra finish when they are made. This leaves them very smooth
and slide easily.
No, I definetly do not get my crokinole discs from any retail/wholesale seller.
My crokinole discs are made with my equipment to my specs at another location.
Please stay in touch.
Willard

Can you please clarify how you only use the concave/convex discs, which you obtain from Willard, Yet Willard only manufacturers and sells the flat type, per Willard Martin's own statement. Also, why the only link the WCC homepage gives as where to get official boards and WCC accessories is Crokinole Depot who says theirs are: "Slightly concave on one side and convex on the other. By being concave and convex you can achieve better spin and a more consistent speed. These are the same discs that are used at the World Crokinole Championship." This explains everyone's confusion on what standards there are for discs at the WCC, if there are any standards (as some have suggested), and what's going on with all the conflicting statements from so many sources.

Can you please help us out? There are many Crokinole players wanting to know what to do.
Thank you,
-Lee Godwin

***The conflicting problems are obvious.

Brian Cook:
Lee, surprising to hear Willard say that his discs are flat because I've seen many players at the WCC spin their discs before a shot to determine which side is concave vs convex. Perhaps he intends to make them flat but there ends up still being some variation on each side. Note also that Willard is not a competitive player himself so perhaps his interpretation of C/C vs flat is different from ours. The bottom line is that the WCC Committee has never set a standard for flat vs C/C discs. We just get the best quality we can and no one up til now has requested one or the other. Personally, I've won the WCC adult singles 3 times and it's not something I ever concern myself with, i.e. whether I'm shooting with flat, convex or concave side down. I just make sure the disc is smooth in surface, especially for open 20 shots.


FYI, this would be a good question to post on the National Crokinole Association NING site. You will find LOTS of other opinions there too. http://worldcrokinoleleague.ning.com/


As for the Crokinole Depot link, that's owned by Ray & Jason Beierling (5 time doubles champions) who are on the WCC committee and have a business arrangement with the WCC to be the supplier (not manufacturer) of boards and accessories.
Brian

***Since Brian is obviously light-years beyond any of our calibers, and is only interested in unfettered smoothness of his shots (nearly always simply shooting for the 20-hole), he is simply looking for "smooth" and not needing the finesse of a slower disc. So, for him. flat is fine.

My Email:
Hi, one last addendum to give another example of what we Crokinole enthusiasts are experiencing. This statement is from the Mr. Crokinole website regarding their discs. "This is the disc used at the World Crokinole Championship™. Designed in 1991 according to our specifications." Again, none of us are able to figure out what's going on.
Thanks again,
-Lee

***Might as well use this golden opportunity to clarify another poster's question and ONE of the "other" sites that claim that their discs are "WCC discs" (which doesn't really use the C/C discs as Crokinole Depot - God, here we go again - directly states they DO.

Brian Cook:
Mr. Crokinole was on the original WCC committee but hasn't been involved for many years. So his site and business aren't in any way connected to the WCC. Also, the tournament only started in 1999 so I don't know what the 1991 reference is. Again, the WCC has never bothered to come up with specifications for any of the equipment as far as I know. Another insight is that the committee is generally made up of local enthusiasts and organizers rather than competitive players, though there are about 3 of us competitive folks on there now. The kinds of questions you're asking tend to come up more in the newly formed National Crokinole Association which is run by players. It now has a circuit of 7 annual tournaments which includes the WCC.
Brian

***This is the biggest miasma of hodge-podge business and politics generated "standards" I've ever seen in a game, - of ANY kind. File it under "Crokinoley-poo".

Sincere gratitude to quintessential Crokinole Master, Brian Cook. Without his openness, honesty, and availibility, none of this would have come to light, himself included.

So,..................the official discs (and boards) used at the WCC are manufactured solely by Willard. These are NOT C/C discs. The (possibly) authority organization, and newer, is the National Crokinole Association. Is there currently a "standard" disc for all upper level competitions? NO, there is NOT! Will there be, or is it "in the works"? Who knows, and I'm too tired of it all to find out.

As my wise ol' grandad used to say, "Just play with anything that fits in the hole".




***NOTE***
All the "edits" have been for typos, only.
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Richard Morris
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Given that the 'official' WCC rules are, frankly, awful, this tale does not surprise me as much as it otherwise would.
 
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Lee Godwin
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AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
Given that the 'official' WCC rules are, frankly, awful, this tale does not surprise me as much as it otherwise would.


Can't disagree, at all. From gathering all the conflicting statements, from all the various sites and people, digging out the truthful ones, having to verify the truthful ones, uncovering info not even known by the WCC, and piecing it all together, - I'm totally fried. My Crokinole board is hanging on the wall and I could swear it's laughing at me.

***On a later day, unless someone else wants to do it first (hint), I'll relay all the info to the National Crokinole Association and see if they can do anything to standardize the game AND associated pieces.

Keep on frickin' flickin'.
-have to go now and have a serious talk with my smartass Crokinole board.


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Wolfgang Zelller
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Thanks for your investigations, I find this very interesting.

Let me add another bit maybe.

I got several kind of discs here. Lately I have been ordering a batch of discs from Willard (btw, a very nice gentlemen speaking german absolutely perfect, even with a charming touch of south-german dialect. Imagine my surprise on the phone...)

Anyhow: Some of my other discs (don't know their source actually)are very clearly concave/convex. They have a gloss finish and on the convex side they have a little "spot" indentation, so you can see which side you will be using without needing to rotate them on the board. If you stack two of those discs on each other with the same side, you can see the shape inbetween like this:



The Willard biscuits though are rather matt and seem totally flat at first sight. Their sides are visually indistinguishable. But if you rotate them on the board, for most of the discs, the two sides actually behave very different in the same pattern as the concave/convex ones above: One side rotates longer, mostly around the center and stays mostly on spot, while the other stops rotating fast and off-center and moves a little out of the center.

So from this observation, I can agree that the Willard biscuits are not similar flat on both sides, but they must be concave/convex as well, even if only in a very minor degree compared to my other biscuits.
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James Ludlow
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+1 for Willard discs. I have a Hilinski board, which is awesome. The discs that came with it, however, were not awesome. I bought 4 sets of discs from Willard, and they are a big upgrade.



 
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Lee Godwin
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wolfzell wrote:
Thanks for your investigations, I find this very interesting.

Let me add another bit maybe.

I got several kind of discs here. Lately I have been ordering a batch of discs from Willard (btw, a very nice gentlemen speaking german absolutely perfect, even with a charming touch of south-german dialect. Imagine my surprise on the phone...)

Anyhow: Some of my other discs (don't know their source actually)are very clearly concave/convex. They have a gloss finish and on the convex side they have a little "spot" indentation, so you can see which side you will be using without needing to rotate them on the board. If you stack two of those discs on each other with the same side, you can see the shape inbetween like this:



The Willard biscuits though are rather matt and seem totally flat at first sight. Their sides are visually indistinguishable. But if you rotate them on the board, for most of the discs, the two sides actually behave very different in the same pattern as the concave/convex ones above: One side rotates longer, mostly around the center and stays mostly on spot, while the other stops rotating fast and off-center and moves a little out of the center.

So from this observation, I can agree that the Willard biscuits are not similar flat on both sides, but they must be concave/convex as well, even if only in a very minor degree compared to my other biscuits.



Sorry, but according to Willard J. Martin, himself (see above posts for copy of his email), his discs are totally flat. He achieves a similar C/C effect by varying the finish layers from one side to the other. While his are undoubtedly the best of the FLAT type being manufactured, and he's able to simulate the natural effects of the C/C type discs, I am not sure who makes the best of the actual C/C discs.

***BTW - The past couple of weeks, while looking through various Crokinole sites on the internet, I also ran across the above pictures on a couple of sites, - but I don't remember which ones.

***Here's a tip I've recently tried and makes a huge difference, as well. I put 4 thin coats of "Spar" finish (any hardware store) on one side only, sanding between finishes per instructions. I put them under an inverted box to minimize contamination from dust motes that cause small pips in the finish. Each successive coat becomes smoother with less pips each time. You can feel the difference very easily. I only put two very thin coats on the edges to avoid any possible trouble with build-up and resizing, I left the opposite side as-is. Then, I used the carnuba wax over the final, well-cured, finish. The result is just as Willard Martin said, one side is extremely fast and slippery while the other remains much slower. Practice with a spare disc to determine if thinning of the Spar finish is needed (just be careful and don't thin too much). I'm sure any urethane finish will accomplish similar results. Spar is just the hardest of the urethane finishes (it's made for the wood parts on ships exposed to the most harsh of elements). Try it on one of your spares. It's a time consuming, but simple thing to do.
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Lee Godwin
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Branson
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On September 19th I sent the following email to Crokinole Depot:

I have a question on a product that needs clarification. After a lot of digging, I found out that the manufacturer of Boards and discs for the WCC is Willard Martin and that you are the ONLY official distributor of all things WCC. Your standard size discs verify them as the same ones used at the WCC and that they are concave/convex. Here's the rub. I emailed Willard, prior to obtaining the above information, for clarification as to whether his discs are the C/C or flat type. Here is his response:

> Hello,
> Thank you for your email.
> My discs are the flat type.
> I compensate this with extra finish when they are made. This leaves them very smooth and slide easily.
> No I definetly do not get my crokinole discs from any retail/wholesale seller.
> My crokinole discs are made with my equipment to my specs at another location.
> Please stay in touch.
> Willard

I, then, emailed the WCC and it was verified that you are, indeed, the only distributor for the WCC. Now, and you see where this is going, if your discs are the same ones used in the WCC, then they have to be the ones that are manufactured by Willard or they can't be "the same ones." And, if they are the ones manufactured by Willard, by his own statement, they cannot be C/C, since he ONLY makes flat ones (albeit, of the highest quality).

So, if your discs are the ones used in the WCC, they HAVE to be the flat type. If they ARE the C/C type discs, they CANNOT be Willard discs and, therefore, cannot be the sames ones used by the WCC. This detective work left the WCC surprised, as well.

Now, to the actual question. Given the facts above, what type of disc do you have?

Exhausted,
-Lee Godwin

***I just wanted to clear up the last loophole in the mess of contradictions discovered and shared in the previous posts.

Crokinole Depot: (9-22...today)
Hello Lee,
You sure did do some digging.
To answer your question, our discs are concave and convex.
When we sell WCC boards, made by Willard, his discs are sent out with the boards.
At the WCC tournament, Willards discs are currently not used. The discs we sell on our site are used.
The WCC is working towards using Willards discs in the future, as their current supply needs upgraded.
I see how you could be confused and I hope this helped.
We will modify our website to help avoid the confusion.

Cheers,
Ray

***God, I could just cry.cry

The wheels on the bus go round and round...

Willard, maker of WCC boards ---vs--- Crokinole Depot, WCC distributor.
ONE is either HIGHLY mistaken, or HIGHLY...something else.

The Crokinole Wars have begun arrrhninjadevilangry

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