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Subject: 10 New Roles rss

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Will
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First of all let me say that I love this game and just can't stop playing it. I have mostly played 2 player (which I think is the most fun), but I liked the 3 and 4 player games too.
A friend and I have been playing a lot and after using most combinations of roles we thought the logical next step would be to create some new roles a-la Pandemic: On The Brink.
With these extra roles, there is 1 adventurer for each non-treasure tile in the game.
(If Matt reads this, I'd be interested to know if you playtested any of these. I'm sure you had to at some point.)

The extra roles:

Adventurer - Starts on Phantom Rock
- Once, at the beginning of your turn, you may discard 1 card to receive an extra action this turn.

Archaeologist - Starts on Dunes of Deception
- You may capture any treasure on any of the treasure tiles. (You still lose the game if you lose the 2 matching Treasure tiles before you have collected the corresponding Treasure.)

Cartographer - Starts on Watchtower
- Your hand limit is 7 instead of 5.


Cryptologist - Starts on Watchtower
- When you draw Treasure cards, look at the top 3 cards of the Treasure deck, put 1 card back on top of the deck and draw the other 2.


Pathfinder - Starts on Crimson Forest
- Once per turn, if you are on any of the "Gate" island tiles, you may move to any other "Gate" island tile without using an action.

Sandbagger - Starts on Misty Marsh
- Once per turn you may discard 1 card to shore up any 1 tile on the island for 1 action.

Strategist - Starts on Observatory
- When you pass a Treasure card, the player you are passing to may also pass you a Treasure card from their hand.

Survivalist - Starts on Twilight Hollow
- If you have 3 or less cards in your hand, you may draw 1 of your Treasure cards from the discard pile instead of the Treasure deck each turn.

Trap Finder - Starts on Breakers Bridge
- On your turn draw 2 less flood cards from the flood deck. (Draw only 1 less in a 2 player game.)

Hero - Starts on Cliffs of Abandon
- Once per game, when a player draws a Waters Rise! card you may choose to not put the flood discard pile back on top of the flood deck. (If 2 Waters Rise cards are drawn in the same turn this ability cannot stop them both.)

Specialist - Starts on Lost Lagoon
- You may use 3 actions and discard 5 cards from your hand to shore all flooded island tiles.


Raft Builder - Starts on Lost Lagoon
- Once per turn, you may sail from any tile that borders an empty space (sunken tile or edge of the map) to any other tile that borders the same empty space. (The tile you move to can be any number of spaces away from the tile you move from.)

For reference, here are the original roles:

Diver - Starts on Iron Gate
-Move through 1 or more adjacent flooded and/or missing tiles for 1 action. (Must end your turn on a tile.)

Explorer - Starts on Bronze Gate
- Move and/or shore up diagonally.

Engineer - Starts on Copper Gate
- Shore up 2 tiles for 1 action.

Navigator - Starts on Gold Gate
- Move another player up to 2 adjacent tiles for 1 action.

Pilot - Starts on Fools' Landing
- Once per turn, fly to any tile on the island for 1 action.

Messenger - Starts on Silver Gate
- Give Treasure cards to a player anywhere on the island for 1 action per card.

After you've tried them vote on their power level (just consider their overall power in 2,3, and 4 player games):
Voting started before some of the roles were changed or fixed so the results may be slightly skewed.
Poll
After playing with each role do you think it is very underpowered (1), slightly underpowered (2), balanced (3), slightly overpowered (4), or very overpowered (5)?
  1 2 3 4 5
Explorer
Diver
Engineer
Navigator
Pilot
Messenger
Adventurer
Archeologist
Cartographer
Pathfinder
Sandbagger
Strategist
Survivalist
Trap Finder
Hero
Specialist
      26 answers
Poll created by Temelin
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Evgeni Liakhovich
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Re: 8 New Roles
These sound pretty much perfect to me! I want them now! I also really like how you found thematic starting locations for them.
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Jon Quinn
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Re: 8 New Roles
Very good roles! I think they all look like they would work very well.

Just one question: Is the "Trap Finder's" pawn shorter than the rest of the pawns because he is dwarf (or hafling)?
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Will
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Re: 8 New Roles
Thanks for the comments, glad you enjoy them.
I'm working on the final 2 roles to complete the set. (Need 1 to start on Cliffs of Abandon and 1 for Lost Lagoon.)

Lost Lagoon role will probably be: Discard 3 cards from your hand to shore all island tiles as 1 action.
I have to test it to find out the correct amount of discard to balance that ability. It will probably be 3 or 4 cards. It can't just be your whole hand or you could just use it when you had no cards and it would be insane.

Cliffs of Abandon might involve getting a card or tile or both back from the abyss if I can make it work somehow.

I'll post the full set once I figure it out.
 
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James Webb Space Telescope in 2018!
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Re: 8 New Roles
Perhaps you could create a poll here, so people could give you feedback about how these roles work ("too powerful, just right, etc.")
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Will
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That's a good idea tesuji, thanks! I added the last 2 roles and the poll.
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Mike Hulsebus
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These roles are outstanding. I haven't played them yet, but I think they're great and go well with what's already there.

We should make up some tested role cards so that people can add them to their game
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Tristan Hall
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Nice work! It's gonna suck for them if they were holding back these roles for an expansion though!
 
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Chef D
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ninjadorg wrote:
Nice work! It's gonna suck for them if they were holding back these roles for an expansion though! ;)


.... but has Gamewright ever published an expansion? I am not sure if that fits with their whole line of games. They might though?
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Will
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I updated a few of the roles. Specialist, Archaeologist, and Survivalist were all too good so I toned them down a bit.
I think Adventurer is the only real broken one right now. We won easily on Legendary with him. Hero might be too good, but I haven't had a chance to try him yet.
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Will
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bprevas wrote:
Pathfinder's special move should require the use of an action. It is already potentially a huge advantage in terms of preserving the actions you have by speeding up movement significantly (depending on placement of tiles).


I just think it needs to be for free because if it wasn't he would be strictly worse than the Pilot. Plus near the end game he becomes significantly worse unless it's a perfectly set up map. I played him as is and he seemed pretty balanced.

bprevas wrote:
Hero is absurd with only three Water Rise! cards in the entire treasure deck. I would only consider playing with that role if I was playing on Legendary Difficulty, and think he is probably still overpowered even then.


There's only 3 waters rise in the deck, but you usually hit them like 5-7 times in a game. I still haven't tried him yet, but if he is too good I will change him to just say "once per game when a Waters Rise comes up you don't have to flip the cards back on top of the deck." you'd still bump the water meter.
I do always appreciate any input tho, and i'll take it into account!
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Will
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I updated the Adventurer and tried to balance him. I think at this point all the roles are fairly balanced. After playing all of them I think they are all around a 3 or a 4 on my scale. Some combinations work really well together, but none of them are really overpowered by themselves. I think the best 3 abilities right now are the Sandbagger, Pilot, and Engineer.
I haven't kept track, but i think we're losing about 25% of the time on Elite when randomly picking from original and new roles shuffled up. I think on legendary we lose about 75% of the time. We also play a rule that if Fools' Landing is in the first 6 flooded we shuffle it back into the deck and pick a new card. We've lost a few times to the annoying 1st turn waters rise with Fools' Landing up and we can't get to it on the first turn. It's just a hassle to reset the board and everything.
I'm going to try to make some of my own cards soon and paint up some extra pawns from a different game.
We're also trying out a variant where we can't talk to each other (or gesture) about strategies. You just have to take your actions with no discussion. It makes the game a lot harder. It's always interesting to talk about how it went afterward too.
 
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Mike Hulsebus
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Temelin wrote:
Archeologist - Starts on Dunes of Deception
- You may capture any treasure on any of the treasure tiles. (You still lose the game if you lose the 2 matching treasure tiles.)


For some reason, people seem to misinterpret the rules on this a lot. The rules state that you lose the game "If both Temples, Caves, Gardens or Palaces, or Gardens sink before you collect their respective treasures" [emphasis added]

After you have the treasures, it doesn't matter what happens to those tiles. Therefore, this role is almost making the game say "you only need 3 treasures to win the game". Unbalancing.
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Will
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We just played a 4 player game over dinner with randomly selected roles.
Adventurer
Survivalist
Strategist - Me
Archaeologist

We played on normal and lost with everybody on Tidal Palace and 2 helicopters and 1 person had 4 cups, but we lost Tidal Palace the turn before we would have won.
The Adventurer never used their ability at all so I'm knocking it down to only discarding 1 card.
The Survivalist only used their ability once during the game, so I'm taking off the restriction to allow drawing Special Action cards from the graveyard.
The Strategist was pretty good for me in trading 3 times with a trade back.
The Archaeologist was able to capture the fire treasure on the Tidal Palace the turn before we lost because we were cut off from the last fire spot.

I don't think the Archaeologist is unbalanced at all. You still need to get all 4 matching cards and get to a Treasure tile. Only he can do this and only before you lose the Treasure spots that match that treasure. (In our game we would have still lost had we lost the last fire spot, even though the Archaeologist could have collected the treasure from another spot. I put it right in his text in the initial post.) (..edit: I just added text so it was more specific..)
I don't really understand what you're saying about "only having to collect 3 treasures" or what you are saying about misunderstanding the rules. You'll have to clarify. His ability helped out, but was by no means unbelievable.
 
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Mike Hulsebus
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Temelin wrote:
I don't think the Archeologist is unbalanced at all. You still need to get all 4 matching cards and get to a Treasure tile.


Haha, so here I am posting something about a misreading of rules and I myself misread your role. Ha, whoops, sorry about that. [I read it as you may use an action to nab a treasure even without having matching treasure cards]

Also, a random idea:
What if you had a guy that had a really good advantage, but also had a disadvantage as well?
 
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Tristan Hall
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mikehulsebus wrote:
What if you had a guy that had a really good advantage, but also had a disadvantage as well?


Like stephen hawking?
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Will
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no worries about the rules thing.

Quote:
What if you had a guy that had a really good advantage, but also had a disadvantage as well?

I like this idea a lot

my second incarnation of the Specialist was "You may move the Water Level up 1 to shore all island tiles." It just didn't work out very well.

I was also thinking about some ability that you could just sink a tile or flood a tile for some benefit. Like sink an unflooded tile adjacent to you to skip drawing flood cards this turn. I can already see things wrong with that ability, but something along those lines might be cool.

Or maybe somebody who only gets 2 actions, but can do something good.
 
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Will
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Made Sandbaggers ability cost 2 actions. I think it was too strong for just 1 action. ...edit: This time it was too weak. Added "discard 1 card." and back to only costs 1 action.
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Will
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We've been playing with these roles for a while now and we have made some changes from my original designs. Some of the roles just weren't fun to play and we were able to come up with 2 new roles to replace the bad ones.
What makes a good role is that you use its ability a lot, you have the ability to help the team in a specific way, and you feel like a unique character in the game. (I still like the Hero a lot even though he goes against my first criterion.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Specialist: I like the concept for this card, but most of the time it just never gets used.

Replacement:

Raft Builder (aka "Michael") - Starts on Lost Lagoon
- Once per turn, if you are adjacent to a sunken tile or the edge of the island, you may move to any other tile with a side adjacent to the same sunken area for 1 action.
(If you are familiar with the game Hive this role is similar to the way the Ant moves.)

Thoughts: I always love playing as this role because he has such a unique way to move and he becomes better as the island sinks.
I can't come up with a better wording than this. If anyone has any suggestions let me know.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Cartographer: While I do like this role in the 2 player game, he becomes terrible in the 4 player game. I've gone a few games without ever needing his ability and that's not fun.

Replacement:

Cryptologist - starts on Watchtower
When you draw Treasure cards, look at the top 3 cards of the Treasure deck, put 1 card back on top of the deck and draw the other 2.

Thoughts: I really like how this ability can either delay a Waters Rise! for a turn or put a treasure on top you want the next person to get.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm probably going to change some of the names and starting locations around now that I have all the abilities figured out.
As soon as I get some pawns and some playtest cards printed up I will create a new thread with pictures and all the abilities.

I'm really never disappointed to get any of the 16 roles now. We used to play that the Diver could only move like a rook in chess, but now we reinterpreted the rules and play that he can turn when swimming. I don't know if that's correct, but he seems playable now.
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Mike Krajewski
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what Raft Builder means, but he seems like a weaker version of Diver. And yes, it has been clarified from the designer that the Diver CAN make turns while swimming. So it seems like Rafter Builder has a subset of the Diver's ability.
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Will
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Diver can't swim around the outside of the island. (If he can, then I don't know why anyone rated him so low. He would be almost as good as the Pilot, if not better because he can move multiple times per turn this way.)
Raft Builder can't move through flooded tiles, only sunken ones.

For example, if the Raft Builder was on the topmost tile of the map, he could move around to the bottommost tile of the map. (Or any tile with a side on the edge of the map.)
 
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Mike Krajewski
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Temelin wrote:
Diver can't swim around the outside of the island. (If he can, then I don't know why anyone rated him so low. He would be almost as good as the Pilot, if not better because he can move multiple times per turn this way.)
Raft Builder can't move through flooded tiles, only sunken ones.

For example, if the Raft Builder was on the topmost tile of the map, he could move around to the bottommost tile of the map. (Or any tile with a side on the edge of the map.)

Yeah, I totally didn't get that from the wording of it. Makes a bit more sense. If I'm getting it right now, it's like he can move into the water and take his raft to land on any tile that shares the same "shoreline" as the water he entered.
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Will
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mkrajew wrote:
Temelin wrote:
Diver can't swim around the outside of the island. (If he can, then I don't know why anyone rated him so low. He would be almost as good as the Pilot, if not better because he can move multiple times per turn this way.)
Raft Builder can't move through flooded tiles, only sunken ones.

For example, if the Raft Builder was on the topmost tile of the map, he could move around to the bottommost tile of the map. (Or any tile with a side on the edge of the map.)

Yeah, I totally didn't get that from the wording of it. Makes a bit more sense. If I'm getting it right now, it's like he can move into the water and take his raft to land on any tile that shares the same "shoreline" as the water he entered.


exactly

How about this wording:

Once per turn, you may sail from any tile that borders an empty space (sunken tile or edge of the map) to any other tile that borders the same empty space. (The tile you move to can be any number of spaces away from the tile you move from.)
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Neil Christiansen
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You should finalize the ones that work, make it pretty, and turn them into a file for the file section.
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Will
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I'm working on it. As soon as I get some free time I'll get it done. I have my own playtest cards made up and I have an idea of how I want to format them, but I'm taking 4 classes this summer so I've been busy lately. I haven't forgotten
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