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Subject: Out of the Wrapper (or the printer) rss

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Robert McCoy
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The Second World War by Pangenre
Out of the wrapper (or printer) comments.

This game produced by Pangenre is a kind of 'less is more' approach to designing a global game on the Second World War. The focus is really not on us old grognards but as a kind of game that can be played by novices.

TSWW strives for reducing everything to be as simple as possible, but not simpler. For example, the land combat system is like the bucket of dice mechanism without the bucket: you only roll one die. The casualties can escalate because of support for the attack via air or additional units.

The scale is 120 miles to the hex for Europe and x2 that for the Pacific. Land units are about the size of small armies, let's say 5 to 6 divisions. For example, the entire Canadian Army is one counter.

Land unit types: Infantry, Marines, Airborne, Armour, Conscripts and HQs.

Nothing special here but it looks quite playable.

A big exception to the same old stuff is the ZoC rules are a little different in so far that moving from one ZoC to another usually generates a casualty penalty unless you are moving armour through an infantry ZOC in non-mud weather. It's simple really.

The Naval units look far more interesting. Carriers, Battleships, Destroyers, Submarines and for a little chrome Pocket Battleships and Q-ship raiders for the Germans.

The Oceans are divided into Megahexes for movement purposes. There are detection rules and sneak attacks. To my mind, this thing is a little like the game Pacific Fleet.

Speaking of which, it is acknowleged in the bibliography that concepts from WIF, ETO and TR are used in this game. The designers' explanation for this cobbling together of differing systems was to make it simple and small. They had living space problems. And to get rid of mind numbing large numbers with a simpler economic system which usually uses toe-counting friendly numbers lower than ten.

What's not in this game is a political system for persuading little countries to join your global crusade; neutrals are neutrals and stay that way most of the time. Other neat stuff such as Mountain and Cavalry units and river terrain are not present as well. Alas, this probably had to be sacrificed because of scale.

Other interesting features are such things as morale for determining surrender: a nation's morale is fixed, but when it surrenders is not, and national modifiers that influence combat results leave you in no doubt who has the better army. And how could you sell a wargame without Kamikazes and Jets.

I would classify this game as beer and pretzels, but it is very, very good beer and pretzels. All in all, a solid entry into the wargaming world.

Rob M'cCoy
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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This game is on my radar based on your review! The thing that scares me the BGG entry says 900 minutes playing time...isnt that abit long for a (good) beer and pretzels type game? Or is the entry wrong?
 
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Jason Dulay
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I was about to comment the same thing. I think it should be 90 minutes. And sorry for my ignorance, but what's ZoC?
 
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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j2sun wrote:
I was about to comment the same thing. I think it should be 90 minutes. And sorry for my ignorance, but what's ZoC?


Zone of Control, some games have ZoC which means that the unit not only controls the hex its actually in but usually the ones immediately adjacent around it.
 
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Pangenre LLC
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Hey, Guys,

The playing time for the full campaign can go for a long time, depending on the speed of the players. 900 mins is probably not an overestimate for the full campaigns, which were designed to be played over the equivalent of a weekend. The reviewer expressed his view that the game was in the realm of beer and pretzel, but we at Pangenre feel that it is still a fairly in-depth wargame. It's just much less complicated, much easier to learn and play, and as or more historically accurate (despite many abstractions) than other, more complicated, wargames that cover the same subject.

Otherwise, we believe that this is a very fair review.

John D. Powers
Pangenre, LLC
Designer: The Second World War
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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Thanks for your response John. How quickly would you say each Campaign would play? Is it something that would be easy to sit down, play say 'Invasion of Poland' put it away then pull it back out later and play 'Invasion of France' and so on?
 
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The game is really designed to be played as a campaign. The only smaller scenarios are "training" scenarios that include the Invasion of Poland (with an extended example of play), the Battle of Midway, and the Russian Campaign. The latter of the three uses all the rules, including production and other elements.

Poland takes about 10 minutes on a slow day. Midway probably 20. Russia can take 1-4 hours, depending on speed of play.

The Campaigns are divided into ET, PT, and Full Campaign (both fronts). The scenarios cover Summer 1939 and Spring 1941 starts.

Once familiar with the rules, the 1941 PT scenario is the quickest campaign. It can be played through in about 4-8 hours depending on how focused the players are, although longer times are typical in social settings.

The ET Scenarios have much greater counter density, and therefore, longer playing times.

And of course, the whole of WWII can take a weekend depending on play speed, number of players, etc.

We have had one request for additional scenarios, but things such as the Western Blitzkrieg go so fast that they aren't really fun except as learning experiences. The campaigns really are the meat and potatoes of the game.

Please let us know if we can answer any other questions, and feel free to check out the samples both at OneBookshelf and at www.pangenre.com. They might give a better idea of the scope than I can without the visual aids. Contacting us directly is the best way to ensure a timely response. I do try to monitor relevant Net traffic, but it might take me a while to locate a stray question on the boards.

Thanks for your inquiries!
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Wendell
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Thanks for the review, this is an interesting looking game.
 
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M St
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Luftwaffe Flak wrote:
This game is on my radar based on your review! The thing that scares me the BGG entry says 900 minutes playing time...isnt that abit long for a (good) beer and pretzels type game? Or is the entry wrong?

For a game about all of WW2, that would be a quite decent time... I'm not aware of anything out there that could compete with this value right now.
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Salim Mohammed
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As someone who bought it, printed it and played it.

I can tell you - IT IS NOT - Beer & Pretzel !

It packs a lot of historical accuracy and fits it on one table !

We took 3 Sundays to play it. 15 hours seems about right. But the first time it could be more.

But it has all the history and tough decision making all the way through. Plan ahead and do it well or you will be sorry.
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John Theissen
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I just printed out the Pacific map, 9 pages. Big problem. On each page, the hex scale is slightly different, so the maps don't properly line up! I suppose you could ignore the mismatched hexes, but that would be difficult. What a waste. Well, $10 wasted, still that's 10 $ down the drain.
 
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Eric Lai
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melchett1 wrote:
I just printed out the Pacific map, 9 pages. Big problem. On each page, the hex scale is slightly different, so the maps don't properly line up! I suppose you could ignore the mismatched hexes, but that would be difficult. What a waste. Well, $10 wasted, still that's 10 $ down the drain.


Anyone else can confirm this? Looking at the pictures posted here on BGG, the map looks aligned to me. I think you may have used fit-to-paper function on your printer driver, that will certainly make the maps misalign.
 
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Pedro Ferrer
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I can confirm that the map is perfectly aligned because I digitally joined all the map parts to form a single piece map image.

I suppose melchett1 had some kind of mounting problem.

Bests,
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Pangenre LLC
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Dear Melchett1,

We're sorry to hear that you are disappointed with your purchase, but had you contacted us (the means are listed in the rulebook), we could have told you what I'm typing in the paragraph below.

I suspect that you may have printed the map segments incorrectly. Each slice is not identical in size. Make sure that your printer options are outputting the pages at the actual size, and not scaling, stretching, or otherwise distorting them.

If you need further assistance, let us know via our Contact Us page on www.pangenre.com or via our Pangenre Facebook page.
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Jonathan Townsend
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I put my printer preference to 'actual size' and not 'fit to size' nor anything else and it is fine.
 
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Armando Felgueroso
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I will buy the game when you release a physical edition, I have not time either patience to print and mount a game, Why dont you form a Joint Venture with GMT or other publisher to release a decent edition of your product???
 
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Charles Neal
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Looks kind of... accessible. I don't mind print n play, it's like cut and paste for (sort of) adults. Just need a table where it could be left set up for a weekend or a week of evenings.

Okay, I went and bought it. First impressions are excellent. Maybe playing it via Vassal would be a workable alternative to lack of a table where it could be left set up?
 
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Pangenre LLC
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Dear Mr. Felgueroso,

We regret that the production costs of printing, storing, and releasing a print version are currently beyond our means, and so there are no current plans to do so. If a print publisher wished to partner with us, they could contact us via our Web site, and we would consider the proposal.

As another poster mentioned, there is a Vassal module available via vassalengine.org.

Andrew Tullsen has received permission to produce printed copies, but he is unaffiliated with Pangenre, LLC. You can find more information here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/52127/item/1849019#ite...

Best wishes.

John Powers
Pangenre, LLC
 
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As a previous poster expressed interest in a published version of our game design, this newsletter from One Small Step Games should address their concerns. For more information, follow OSS Games at their Website or on their Facebook page.

http://modernconflictstudiesgroup.cmail1.com/t/ViewEmail/i/9...

When the printed OSS Games version becomes available, the print-on-demand version will be removed from any and all Pangenre storefronts.

John D. Powers
Pangenre, LLC
 
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Ask and thou shalt receive (in due time).

http://ossgamescart.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPa...
 
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Chris Friend
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Well here it is 2017, and I'm enjoying looking over the new from OSS game. The components look first class. Looking forward to diving in.
There's mention that this is a very good beer & pretzels game. Really? No, A&A is beer and pretzels. This game is a far distance from that in depth and complexity. But having a beer and some pretzels while playing is definitely an optional house rule.
 
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Tony Doran
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friendc wrote:
Well here it is 2017, and I'm enjoying looking over the new from OSS game. The components look first class. Looking forward to diving in.
There's mention that this is a very good beer & pretzels game. Really? No, A&A is beer and pretzels. This game is a far distance from that in depth and complexity. But having a beer and some pretzels while playing is definitely an optional house rule.:)


Yup. Just got my copy a couple of weeks ago, and I am impressed with component quality. I agree that it seems to be more than a beer and pretzels game. The rules seem to me to have some depth, and I expect there is good replayability. Reminds me of some older games which had depth without rules complexity.
 
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