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Subject: GBG Speaks- Warriors of God (MMP) rss

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Andrew Young
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Hey All,

The Greater Boston Grogs is a gaming club in the Metrowest Boston area. We have a great bunch of guys with a diverse interest in games from light euros to the heaviest of conflict simulations.

We welcome anyone to inquire about joining- there are no qualifications on membership save you that bathe and that you enjoy making fun of Memoir '44 (even if you secretly love it).



The guild is here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/guild/33

We're going to try to get out reviews for games we play for, we hope, the benefit of others. Perhaps, with all of our gaming diversity and experience we have something to say. We'll see.



Like many endeavors, things start off slowly or gingerly. This review of Warriors of God is largely my thoughts but includes thoughts from Eric B. and Tom R.

In future, we hope to have more GBGers add to the mix but we have to start somewhere, right?

We will stick to the following format for reviews (until amended!):

1. Overview of the Game
2. Components (review of the board, aids and pieces)
3. Rules (review of the rules and their comprehension, etc.)
4. Thoughts after 1st Playing (how did we like, dislike it)
5. Thoughts after 2nd Playing (compare, contrast to first playing)
6. Conclusion (pros and cons, with a GBG rating)

Warriors of God

Eric and I played Warriors of God on Tuesday again. We played a game together last September (2009) as well. Prior to this I played a 1/2 game with Jim Crimmins at some point.

I know Tom and Deron are slogging through a game as well. Tom seems high on the game. He said this when we started reviewing the game:

Yes, I was really jazzed by it the first time through. Who wants to play a game?

So GBGers are excited about this one. The new scenario and expansion counters in the forthcoming Operations Special Issues #3 will get used, indeed.

1. Overview of the Game

Eric B provides us with a great overview of WoG:

Warriors of God is a game representing the decades-long conflicts between England and France (though starting before "England" and "France" were the well-defined entities we see today) in a relatively simple yet compelling light wargame format.

Appropriately for the period, leaders are everything in this era---armies cannot form or move without them, and armies disband if leaders die unless new leaders appear to command them. This is particularly significant given the high death rate among leaders---each turn is 10 years long, and leaders can die of disease as well as in battle. There's plenty of luck in this game---if you don't howl in despair a few time in each game, you're not paying attention---but skill can go a long way to mitigate it.

Although Warriors of God is clearly a wargame, battles aren't the key to victory. No, victory is earned primarily by controlling territory; battles are fought either to gain territory for yourself or to deny it to your opponent.


I'll add to his great thoughts:

WoG comes with 2 12 Turn Scenarios, The Hundred Years War and the Lion in Winter. Each scenario, understandably, uses different leaders. Leaders are key so here they are in all of their glory!

Hundred Years War Leaders:



The Lion in Winter Leaders:



Adam Starkweather and MMP have also announced a new scenario published in the forthcoming Operations Special Issue #3 magazine, as mentioned above. Though, I saw him calling for more playtesting on the scenario... which should be a shorter offering. The game is in its 2nd printing as the first one quickly sold out.


2. Components (review of the board, aids and pieces)

The IGS series from MMP has a wide diversity in aesthetics and components. Some of it I like, some I think odd looking. Pretty normal, I'd say.

MAP

Warriors of God has some great aesthetics and componentry, IMO. While the washed-out parchment map look has been beaten to death at this point, I'd say it works well with WoG.



Some have claimed that the definition between areas is blurry and could be more clear. I think this is a fair shot though I've not had it confuse me or trip me up in a game yet.

The borders determine how many leaders can cross in a given impulse (river= 3, clear= 2, rough= 1). Conceptually, one must alter their prior experience with borders. How can I move 3 leaders (and their armies) across a river border but only 2 across a clear? Shouldn't it be more difficult to cross a river like in other games? In this game, though, its not thought of as crossing a river but rather navigating it. If you look closely you'll see a river from one area to the next- so, the designer is essentially saying that the armies are using the river to travel more quickly and smoothly from area to area (using boats and such). Its a bit different and rather cool.



Some areas of the map (ex: England, Burgundy) are outlined in a red wash. This indicates that the area is worth 2 VPs. Each other area is worth 1VP for control. In addition, the areas have a crest on them indicating which leaders consider said area their homes. A leader in his home area can recruit faster and control the area without worry of a dr. Lastly, areas have a recruiting number (in Roman numerals) to indicate how many steps they can recuit (1 through 3). The 3 areas can also recruit special forces like cavalry, gunners and longbowmen.

The rest of the map offers some aids (victory points, impulses, Turn #, etc.)

Tom's thoughts on the map:

This style of wargame map can sometimes be over-produced to the point of gaudiness, but WoG's map avoids this. It's a nice map, stylish but not distracting.


The map and counters were done by Mark Mahaffey as well as the lovely quotes throughout the game. Nicolás Eskubi did the illustrations (horses and men, etc) on the counters. A great team!


AIDS

The game comes with 2 doublesided (8 by 11) aids covering all aspects of the rules. They are very handy but at times hard to read, in my opinion, as they are done in the same parchment paper aesthetic. Perhaps, with more use they will be easier on the eyes. But, functionally, as mentioned, they are fine. In the last game played I found myself looking at the aids less. I think this is more of a function of the rules being relatively straightforward and easy to remember.

PIECES

The counters are 1 inchers. Army units are generic and range from 1 to 6 in size. Other informational markers are provided to indicate leader status as well as to keep track of game progress, etc.

This shot shows you how the counters look close up on the map.



Tom's thoughts on the counters:

I quite like the counters as well. The infantry illustrations are dynamic, and the leaders are clear and easy to use. It was also a nice thematic touch to put Shakespearean excerpts on the rear of some of the system counters.

I'm struggling to find something negative about the counters as well as the rest of the components.. hmm, the mercenary counter art makes them look like ninjas? (Sort of in my mind).



One thing that I did notice playing the 2nd game... the Aggressor Counters are dual sided, English crest on one and French on the other. The crests and colors aren't stark enough so when you come back to a battle (having put an aggressor marker in the area during impulses) you must look carefully to see which side is the aggressor. Now, this isn't Katrina but its just something I noticed during the game. All in all, the components are excellent.

The counters were done by Nicolás Eskubi. Nicolas' other counters I've struggled with (watermarking, etc.) but these are crisp and clean.

3. Rules (review of the rules and their comprehension, etc.)

The rules are well laid out in color. I believe Jon Gautier was the rules writer for WoG. He also did the rules for The Devil's Cauldron: The Battles for Arnhem and Nijmegen, which I thought were well done too. The style is less text book and more conversational. I think this goes a long way in helping the rules reader understand a rule. There are many color examples in the rules which, once again, help the reader grasp the design.

The rules are pretty straightforward as the game isn't that complicated. Rules that got a second read were the "fly paper" and siege mechanics. For some reason, they didn't stick the first time. But, they are easy to understand... they are interesting rules to manipulate during the game, however!




Some of the significant rules that affect game play and strategy: leader death rolls, choice of special units, 'fly paper' and variable leader choices. There are others but I'll focus on these for a bit.

Leader Death Rolls: There is no decision to make with the rule itself; you must roll for leader death each turn to see if a wound turned into a festering disease sandwich. RIP However, in the wake of leader death/non-death you must decide upon how to manage the board in the upcoming turn. To take it to an extreme think of it this way: If you have some hard hitting leaders on the board you have a good chance at an offensive turn. If they die, you may need to go into a defensive mode as you don't have the best campaigners in place to take land.

Choice of Special Units: Actually, I'm going to downgrade this as a significant rule.. it would seem wise to always take a special unit (except perhaps, the gunner) when you are able. I can't think of a major reason not too. The one minor reason could be that the only leader capable of directing knights (3 star) may be frail and ready for a dirt nap. If you have too many knights in a force and he dies, that force will be reduced by its knights thus weakening you. However, I'm not sure how significant this will be in games.

Tom's thoughts on the Specials:

One note on Special Units. Methinks one should always recruit gunners if possible. There are only four of them in the counter mix and if you can keep them out of your opponents grimy little hands, it makes it very unlikely for them to successfully siege a III area, while making your own siege trains formidable.

Once more unto the breach!


Fly Paper Effect: In game play you must watch this closely, IMO, as you may find yourself stuck in an area. This can be significant if a strong attacking force is the one stuck. I.E. You have a strong leader with a good force poised to go on the offensive and WHAMO an enemy force comes in and keeps you honest. I've used smaller forces with weak leaders to pin larger more charismatic leaders in place. The larger force in this case could be extricated but the opposing player would have to burn impulses to bring forth his own pinning force.

So, besides these rules the game is very straight forward. Combat is interesting in that one must manage their leaders correctly in order to array the correct force. Some leaders can move a bunch of units around but can't bring the same number to bear in battle. The number of stars represents the ability to recruit and marshall units (2 times the number). The numerical figure on the bottom left side of the leader counter is his prowess or battle rating. The right side number is the number of dice one can roll in battle. So, you could have a leader with 6 troops underneath him but you might only be able to roll 4 dice in battle given the right side number. Its an interesting dilemma as you manage/garrison your areas while attempting to construct better attacking forces with the appropriate leaders. Combat is easy in that you roll a number of dice (as indicated above) and hit on 6s. Your leader's battle rating could offer a bonus if it is better that the enemy's. Units, such as longbowman add extra dice. A force rolling 7 dice and hitting on 4s and above can ruin or make your day.



All in all the rules are well done and quite simple. There is some errata found on MMP's site as well as in the game's header here on BGG.

I give the rules an 8.

4. Thoughts after 1st Playing (how did we like, dislike it)

Eric and I played this one together about 1 year ago (Hundred Years War). I had shelved it after receiving it... each time I'd walk by the shelf I thought that I really needed to play it. Eric finally insisted that we play- he had played a few times and was able to get us up and running fast. We had a blast. As I've said I think the game is like a chess match inside of a game of Chicken. The first person to blink can really get punished. I took the French and Eric had the British. The game went the distance and ended in a French win.

I think Eric had difficulty in penetrating the French Blob. I had never heard of this blob as a tactic or such. It just seemed logical for the French to have a core of contiguous areas from which to operate. One could recruit and sweep new recruits into those areas that seemed to be targets for the British. It was after this game that we learned about the venerable French Blob tactic.

Due to being newbies we never really got into the siege aspects of the game. But, we had a lot of fun learning how to manage one's impulses as well as one's leaders as they withered away.


5. Thoughts after 2nd Playing (compare, contrast to first playing)

It took Eric and I too long to get this one back on the table. To the game's credit it didn't take us long to start playing again- even after such a long hiatus. We switched sides, Eric took the French and I took the English.

From the outset it seemed like the French were focused on the total destruction of the English way of life. The French seem to start the Hundred's Year War with better leaders and Eric was motivated to take advantage of them before they caught the proverbial cold...

I felt like I was back on my heels- the French had cleared out London a few times but failed to get their flags on the castle ramparts (i.e. failed to control it). They were also very active in Northern areas. However, turns 2-5 (or so) were marked by really fast turns (1 turn had 3 impulses, I think). So, both forces didn't have a lot of time to create momemtum. When London was being burned I was a bit frustrated as I wasn't sure what to do. This, coupled with some bad leader death rolls, was causing the English leadership issues. However, I quickly realized to forget about London... go South! I used many of my available impulses to push towards Aquitaine and Champagne and Burgundy. Eric focused upon the north center. The English were able to hold these VP areas for some time though lost Burgundy at one point. The English held Flanders as well for awhile. I think we both got a few VPs on prisoners as well. The British auto-victoried on Turn 10.

6. Conclusion (pros and cons, with a GBG rating)

PROS

I think this game deserves all the acclaim its gotten since its release. I think its one of the best in the International Games Series from MMP. Its fast and tense. Its not a very accurate simulation of warfare in this period, to be sure, but its a really fun game offering some interesting dilemmas.

CONS

The dice can be a harsh mistress. I'm not sure how one can truly mitigate the dice if they are lopsided. I did leave the 2nd playing thinking about this very issue. I'd be interested to know from those that have played the game a lot how they mitigate bad dice (both in combat and in leader death). I hope there is a way so this isn't a blight on the game.

I rate the game a solid 8.

devil

EDIT: Further Clarification on Artist credits.
EDIT: Longbowmen
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Tom Stearns
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Units, such as longbowman, also can bring that 6 down to a 5 or 4,



Longbowmen don't modify die rolls. They add extra die.

Excellent review. I played WOG this weekend for the 1st time and loved it. I would give it a better grade than B. Toward the end of the game I figured out the "pinning a large force with a smaller force" strategy, and I think it is an important tactic to use.

As for mitigating poor die rolls, I'm not sure how you can do this. If your rolling poor for initiative you will have 1 less impulse a turn than your opponent. Over the course of the game these can add up if it is consitently occuring. Thus your opponent can end the game having received more moves/impulses. A definite advantage. However, when you don't have initiative you get to choose the unaligned leaders first, you will tend to have the better leaders. So there is already some mitigation built in.

Poor die rolling in combat can be mitigated somewhat by numerical superiority and/or DRM's. In our game this weekend I regularly had the English out numbered, but he regularly had DRM's. The English, in spite of poor rolling, won more battles than they lost, but still lost the game. (Won the battle but lost the war?)

Poor die rolling on leader death die rolls I think is the most damaging. Not only losing good leaders, but leaders in general. Without leaders you cannot bring force to bear, nor can you spread your forces out to challenge control. Another tactic we didn't pick up until late in the game is using an impulse to remove a control marker. It takes away VP's and recruiting of units.

This is a game, as with most games I guess, that with multiple plays will get better. There seem to be some subtle nuances there that will be more apparent with more plays of the game.


EDIT: Read your 8 as B for some reason.
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Eugene
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medievalbanquet wrote:
The new scenario and expansion counters in the forthcoming Operations Special Issues #3 will get used, indeed.

Can you tell me more about this?
 
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Andrew Young
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You are right about longbowmen, thanks! Brain cramp.

Good thoughts on the dice. I agree.

devil
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Andrew Young
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garygarison wrote:
medievalbanquet wrote:
The new scenario and expansion counters in the forthcoming Operations Special Issues #3 will get used, indeed.

Can you tell me more about this?


I've just seen some announcements and such on CSW. I think its going to be ready in a few weeks. Check MMP's website!

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Nate Merchant
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Well, why don't you just marry it if you love it so much?

If this is an 8 for you, Andy, I'd love to see a review where you think the game is a 10. Probably comes with an adult BGG rating.

I loved this:

medievalbanquet wrote:
But, we had a lot of fun learning how to manage one's impulses...


High school was so long ago!
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Richard Young
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I hope your requests for ideas regarding mitigation for all the die rolling that can go bad on you will be heeded. Most reviews of this game have commented on the chaos that drives the game from being a strategic struggle to one of tactical reaction to various kinds of calamity. It was the game's intention which pleases some and frustrates others.

But just about every discussion of this is joined by those who insist that with enough experience you will learn how to mitigate all the awful things that can befall you. Yet, specifics remain vague. Step up gents!
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Andrew Young
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Natus wrote:

Well, why don't you just marry it if you love it so much?

If this is an 8 for you, Andy, I'd love to see a review where you think the game is a 10. Probably comes with an adult BGG rating.

I loved this:

medievalbanquet wrote:
But, we had a lot of fun learning how to manage one's impulses...


High school was so long ago!


Always in the gutter, Nate... always dragging it down.

I love it.

meeple
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Andrew Young
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Bubslug wrote:
I hope your requests for ideas regarding mitigation for all the die rolling that can go bad on you will be heeded. Most reviews of this game have commented on the chaos that drives the game from being a strategic struggle to one of tactical reaction to various kinds of calamity. It was the game's intention which pleases some and frustrates others.

But just about every discussion of this is joined by those who insist that with enough experience you will learn how to mitigate all the awful things that can befall you. Yet, specifics remain vague. Step up gents!


Perhaps, but the game is fun to play. The dice can be frustrating though...

ninja
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Nate Merchant
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medievalbanquet wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
I hope your requests for ideas regarding mitigation for all the die rolling that can go bad on you will be heeded. Most reviews of this game have commented on the chaos that drives the game from being a strategic struggle to one of tactical reaction to various kinds of calamity. It was the game's intention which pleases some and frustrates others.

But just about every discussion of this is joined by those who insist that with enough experience you will learn how to mitigate all the awful things that can befall you. Yet, specifics remain vague. Step up gents!


Perhaps, but the game is fun to play. The dice can be frustrating though...

ninja


I know that I and others have proposed some easy drms in Bent's review, and I'm sure others have proposed the same long before we did. I know that the drms would cut down on the chaos of die rolling for Leader Deaths and Determining control, and could be Optional for those who like their chaos. I wonder if Adam has seen the suggestions.
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Natus wrote:
medievalbanquet wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
I hope your requests for ideas regarding mitigation for all the die rolling that can go bad on you will be heeded. Most reviews of this game have commented on the chaos that drives the game from being a strategic struggle to one of tactical reaction to various kinds of calamity. It was the game's intention which pleases some and frustrates others.

But just about every discussion of this is joined by those who insist that with enough experience you will learn how to mitigate all the awful things that can befall you. Yet, specifics remain vague. Step up gents!


Perhaps, but the game is fun to play. The dice can be frustrating though...

ninja


I know that I and others have proposed some easy drms in Bent's review, and I'm sure others have proposed the same long before we did. I know that the drms would cut down on the chaos of die rolling for Leader Deaths and Determining control, and could be Optional for those who like their chaos. I wonder if Adam has seen the suggestions.


Yes, indeed and so have I - what I was referring to are the folks who claim that no mitigation is needed if you play skillfully enough. I challenge that assertion.
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Severus Snape
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Bubslug wrote:
Natus wrote:
medievalbanquet wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
I hope your requests for ideas regarding mitigation for all the die rolling that can go bad on you will be heeded. Most reviews of this game have commented on the chaos that drives the game from being a strategic struggle to one of tactical reaction to various kinds of calamity. It was the game's intention which pleases some and frustrates others.

But just about every discussion of this is joined by those who insist that with enough experience you will learn how to mitigate all the awful things that can befall you. Yet, specifics remain vague. Step up gents!


Perhaps, but the game is fun to play. The dice can be frustrating though...

ninja


I know that I and others have proposed some easy drms in Bent's review, and I'm sure others have proposed the same long before we did. I know that the drms would cut down on the chaos of die rolling for Leader Deaths and Determining control, and could be Optional for those who like their chaos. I wonder if Adam has seen the suggestions.


Yes, indeed and so have I - what I was referring to are the folks who claim that no mitigation is needed if you play skillfully enough. I challenge that assertion.


You are correct to challenge the assertion. The reason why no one has come to the plate is that they have nothing to offer in the way of concrete ideas. Given how much I like the game as a game, I wish I had something to offer to help it as history. When you and Natus and I ask for more, we are told to shut up and enjoy it as a game 'cause its fun.

Or, to put it another way: "Perhaps, but the game is fun to play. The dice can be frustrating though..." With help and respect such as this, it shows that there are some unwilling to ackowledge that there is even a plate where they can step up.

goo

 
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Andrew Young
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I'm confused. What's the real issue here?
 
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bentlarsen wrote:
When you and Natus and I ask for more, we are told to shut up and enjoy it as a game 'cause its fun.


I simply don't mind the randomness. I have no objection to your attempts to make the game more enjoyable for you by modifying it, but I haven't gotten to the point where I feel a need to do so. Hence, it's hard to react to your proposals.

I've played the game more than half a dozen times and each time I play, I see ways I could have prepared better for the randomness.
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Eric Brosius wrote:
bentlarsen wrote:
When you and Natus and I ask for more, we are told to shut up and enjoy it as a game 'cause its fun.


I simply don't mind the randomness. I have no objection to your attempts to make the game more enjoyable for you by modifying it, but I haven't gotten to the point where I feel a need to do so. Hence, it's hard to react to your proposals.

I've played the game more than half a dozen times and each time I play, I see ways I could have prepared better for the randomness.
(Italics mine)

Bingo! That's what I was trolling hoping for! Details please. Is it after many playing you see things (what things?) you should have been doing or is it after each game you see a different thing you could/should have done. How much of this is hindsight (well if I'd known I was going to roll this, or that, I'd have done things differently)?
 
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DM Tom
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Bubslug wrote:
Details please.

Well I can offer my thoughts after a few plays. I agree that due to the time scale and leader death it's difficult to stick to long term plans. You are better off thinking tactically and maximizing each turn to its fullest.

That said, while you don't know when your leaders will exit, you do know with certainty when your leaders will arrive. Plan this turn with an eye towards who is coming in at the end of turn. They can perhaps continue the momentum into the following turn(s).

Also, having continuous lines of deployment are crucial. If your controlled territory is balkanized, you are going to see many of your recruited troops evaporate for lack of leadership. For the French, this means having "the Blob" where you can deploy troops to any part of your territory. Champagne is a key area for a successful Blob. For the English, control of Brittany is VITAL; it will often connect England to the rest of your overseas territory.

And, more obviously, if you have a big army you can't afford to lose, have a few "younger" leaders in the same territory who can step in if needed.

Failing that...roll lots of sixes.

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Richard Young
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All very routine, sensible advice but totally at the whim of the dice to accomplish. The leader you need to snag, or hold, a key area who you know is coming goes to the other guy because of the intiative die roll. Your "young" leaders die early deaths. Battles or sieges are still a crap shoot despite your best efforts to use what drms there are to use. Areas you have to roll for because the leader that would have given it to you for free is on the other side (assuming you managed to win the battle in the first place), fail to yield to you. Etc. etc. etc.

Your advice to think reactively and tactically is spot on (about the only way you can think actually), as is the advice to practice rolling sixes...

It is what it is and, as I understand it, exactly the way it was intended to be. I think as a strategy game however it loses a little in the interests of recreating the chaos. As long as you are aware and are ready to embrace it then there can be reasonable fun in the playing of such a design. Maybe if it were a good deal shorter...
 
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Adam Starkweather
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For what it is worth, at WBC, there were 30+ players for the tourney and the 4 most experienced players made the semis...

Seems to offer some evidence that the game is perhaps not all luck.
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adamant wrote:
For what it is worth, at WBC, there were 30+ players for the tourney and the 4 most experienced players made the semis...

Seems to offer some evidence that the game is perhaps not all luck.


And this response shows what? That concerns over the randomness are being addressed? That alternate ideas from someone who others would think is "in the know" would be forthcoming? The difficult questions continue to be ignored.

Still, it is a great game.

goo

 
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Jeffrey D Myers
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It seems to suggest, albeit circumstantially, that it is possible that the game is sound and needs not be changed. sauron
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Eric Brosius
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bentlarsen wrote:
And this response shows what? That concerns over the randomness are being addressed?


I think the point is that some games with a lot of randomness still see the same players win a large percentage of the games. A notable example of this is For the People, a game that clearly has a lot of randomness, but that James Pei keeps winning at WBC (with very few exceptions.)

I don't hold myself out as a good player, so I can't write a great strategy guide, but good play obviously matters in Warriors of God.
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Richard Young
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Eric Brosius wrote:
bentlarsen wrote:
And this response shows what? That concerns over the randomness are being addressed?


I think the point is that some games with a lot of randomness still see the same players win a large percentage of the games. A notable example of this is For the People, a game that clearly has a lot of randomness, but that James Pei keeps winning at WBC (with very few exceptions.)

I don't hold myself out as a good player, so I can't write a great strategy guide, but good play obviously matters in Warriors of God.


There is simply no comparison between the two games wrt the randomness quotient. For the People is strategic on a level that WoG couldn't hope to compete with. WoG is a game, however, where experience will count for a lot, so the more experienced players will advance further - but at the end, the dice will rule. It is what it is...
 
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I disagree. The strategy is to gain control of adjacent areas. Also as France I avoid combat, thus avoiding bad combat rolls.
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davedanger wrote:
I disagree. The strategy is to gain control of adjacent areas. Also as France I avoid combat, thus avoiding bad combat rolls.
Oh please! There is no way to avoid the myriad of die rolls this game demands - "combat" is only a small part of that. Of course the strategy is to gain control of key areas of the map - it is the very essence of the game. I simply say, good luck with that.

I would be interested in seeing how you manage to implement your "strategy" without having to roll any dice, whether for combat or any other of the ways areas become, and remain, under your control (siege, initiative, leader death, and on and on...).

Here we have yet another way of trying to insist that luck plays no part in this game. shake
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Jon Gautier

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Bubslug wrote:
Here we have yet another way of trying to insist that luck plays no part in this game. shake


Which is interesting, since no one I've seen on BGG has ever suggested that. What has been suggested is that the considerable amount of luck in the game: a) can be managed, and b) tends to even out. Some small early sampling of the truth of this has been found at the WBC tourney, where the same players have done better, which tends to show that the game is not simply a die rolling contest and that skill plays a roll. But it is early days yet, and no one can yet say how big that role might be.

It has also been suggested that this is decidedly not a game for players who like to make, and then execute, the perfect plan. They have been advised not to bother wasting their time with WofG.
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