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Subject: Question on Ogre's Anti-Personnel Weapon rss

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Erick Sais
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I have the Ogre Deluxe Edition. The rules say "No infantry piece may be attacked more than once per turn by antipersonnel, though any number of AP can be used in that attack."

Does this mean that an Ogre that starts the game with 8 AP can target an infantry with Defence 3 at an 8 to 3 odds or 2-1 on the CRT? If this is true, can the Ogre instead, split it's atack 4 AP on one infantry and 4 AP on another?
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Andrew Walters
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You could fire 8-3 or 2-1.

You can split up your AP however you like, but you cannot split up the infantry. Their electronic defenses help each other out. Thus You can't fire 4 AP at 2 squads at 2-1 and the other 4 AP at the remaining squad at 4-1. You have to fire at all three together.

You also can't attack them with 6 AP at 2-1 and then hit whatever's left with the other 2 AP, since those infantry have already been attacked this turn.

You could split up your 8 AP on two separate platoons 6-3 and 2-3 for a 2-1 and a 1-2, or 4-3 or 1-1 on each platoon.

Does that answer the question?

Andrew
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Erick Sais
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Yes it does. Thanks for the quick reply. The rule book does not make it clear. It would have been nice if they would have put in an example or two.
 
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David Valenze
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A related question. Can you overrun the infantry during your movement phase, and then follow up with a standard AP attack?

 
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Andrew Walters
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Yes to the last question.

Under the Ogre rules (GEV has different rules), if an Ogre with any AP left moves through a hex with infantry that infantry is reduced by a squad but that does not count as an AP attack for that turn. Move through to turn a 3 into a 2 and then attack it at better odds, definitely. Absolutely. Love doing that.

'Course, that means shooting at infantry that are behind you. If you're still moving 3 infantry behind you are going to be out of range in another turn. On the other hand, if your movement is down to 2 you better be sre and take them out...

Andrew
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King of the Dead
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Is there a limit to how many extra movement points an OGRE may spend to overrun an infantry stack?
The rules say it may spend an extra mp, stay in the hex, and reduce te infantry again.
But can you do this more than once?
 
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Andrew Walters
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Yes, but I've always had a hard time imagining that one squad is worth a MP. You need to get to the CP, and except under certain unlikely circumstances you're better off getting there than getting rid of that squad. It's *possible* that might matter, just unlikely.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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If the AP attack is the first time you attack a group of squads of infantry in a given turn and the defender decides to split them up into different groups (with the group the attacker chooses suffering the AP attack and the rest suffering spillover fire), do the groups that weren't targeted count as being attacked by AP that turn?
 
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Andrew Walters
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It doesn't matter that they have been attacked by AP.

When the Combat Phase begins the attacker specifies how they will be divided for defense, regardless of how the counters are divided. The Ogre may then attack one group, then another, then go back to the first group, with any and all weapons. The only rule is that each Ogre weapon can only fire once - a group of infantry can be attacked more than once, by AP or other or both in any order.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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andreww wrote:

It doesn't matter that they have been attacked by AP.

When the Combat Phase begins the attacker specifies how they will be divided for defense, regardless of how the counters are divided. The Ogre may then attack one group, then another, then go back to the first group, with any and all weapons. The only rule is that each Ogre weapon can only fire once - a group of infantry can be attacked more than once, by AP or other or both in any order.

I'm a little confused by that. Section 7.12.1 states that the defender (not the attacker) can split stacked infantry when they are first attacked, not when combat begins; and Section 7.05.1 says that you can't fire AP at the same unit more than once each turn.

So if the attacker decides to only fire his AP at stacked groups of infantry (which could either have just split on that attack or may have split during an earlier attack), is the spillover fire also considered fired at the other groups of infantry?
 
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Andrew Walters
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Ah, I had forgotten completely about 7.05.1.

So the question is: if the defender divides his infantry into two or more groups and attacks one with AP weapons resulting in spillover fire against the other group or groups, can other AP weapons still be fired at the other groups or does the spillover fire constitute their one AP attack for the turn?

I don't think this has come up before but the answer has to be that they *can* be attacked by other AP weapons. Otherwise if you fired some of your AP at one of the infantry group the rest of the infantry would be immune, and the only thing that would make sense is to fire *all* of your AP at one group. It would tantamount to saying only one AP attack per hex, and if that's what they wanted to say that would have been an easier way to say it.
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David Rock

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You may be mixing systems a bit.

Do you mean overrun as in a Basic Ogre game, or do you mean Overrun as in using the Overrun rules? They are completely different things.

Overrunning infantry with the Basic Rules:
You can overrun (or ram) a single unit up to two times, spending an MP for each (6.01.1). Additionally, using the AP guns during the movement phase does not count as an attack with the APs, it's an automatic reduction (6.06). The AP guns can be used normally during the fire phase after you have reduced them by running them over. The rules about splitting infantry does not apply to the Basic Rules, either (and there is no such thing as spillover fire).

The full-blown Overrun rules:
You do not reduce Infantry by "ramming/running over/whatever" them at all using the full overrun rules (8.00). In fact, you _can't_ ram infantry at all (8.05.2). When you overrun, this is a heated close-combat slugfest that happens during a movement phase. All units involved in the overrun are pulled off the map and set up for repeated fire phases until one side is completely destroyed. The remaining units on the winning side are put back in the hex. If it was the attacker and they still have MPs left, they can continue moving AND then also take the fire phase as usual. True Overruns are isolated to the movement phase and have no impact on availability of weapons during the fire phase. Only Ogre missile racks are not allowed to fire again (8.05.4).
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King of the Dead
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granitepenguin wrote:
Overrunning infantry with the Basic Rules:
You can overrun (or ram) a single unit up to two times, spending an MP for each (6.01.1). Additionally, using the AP guns during the movement phase does not count as an attack with the APs, it's an automatic reduction (6.06). The AP guns can be used normally during the fire phase after you have reduced them by running them over. The rules about splitting infantry does not apply to the Basic Rules, either (and there is no such thing as spillover fire).


Now you've completely confused the hell out of me.

In my rules, 6.01 is "sequencing"

6.101 (which I thought you might have mistyped) is antipersonnel.

6.06 is "attacks"

So... What the hell are we talking about here?
 
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Scott Ellis
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There are basically 2 different ways to handle infantry, depending on what stacking/ramming rules you're using.

If you're using the Ogre no stacking/simple ramming rules, you can only have up to 3 infantry in the hex, it doesn't matter what the counters are they ALWAYS add up together. If the Ogre enters their hex with any AP weapons remaining, it reduces the squad by 1 for free (no weapons used), and can spend additional MPs to reduce again as long as it can move. When firing on infantry, the Ogre can only attack each hex with AP once, he can't fire with AP, evaluate the result, and fire again with more AP like he can with heavier weapons. But he's welcome to use as many AP guns as he wants in the initial firing.

If you're using the GEV-based stacking/overrun rules, there can be up to 15 infantry in a hex (less 3x the number of other armor units). The first time they're attacked in a turn, the defender decides what size counters those infantry are grouped into. The attacker then decides which counter to attack, all the other units suffer spillover fire. Again, the attacker can't fire AP at a counter, evaluate the results, and fire more AP at the same counter.

In an Overrun using the GEV rules, all the infantry are separated into 1/1 single squads. Each squad attacks at double strength (so 2), the defenders all get to fire first, then any surviving attackers return fire, going back and forth until one side is completely eliminated (with some exceptions for Ogres).
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Scott Ellis
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An example on the Ogre map:

If an Ogre Mark III is next to two 3 infantry, he can fire 3 AP at each one, but can't then fire the leftover 2 AP at the one he only got a D result on.
 
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David Rock

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Nazhuret wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
Overrunning infantry with the Basic Rules:
You can overrun (or ram) a single unit up to two times, spending an MP for each (6.01.1). Additionally, using the AP guns during the movement phase does not count as an attack with the APs, it's an automatic reduction (6.06). The AP guns can be used normally during the fire phase after you have reduced them by running them over. The rules about splitting infantry does not apply to the Basic Rules, either (and there is no such thing as spillover fire).


Now you've completely confused the hell out of me.

In my rules, 6.01 is "sequencing"

6.101 (which I thought you might have mistyped) is antipersonnel.

6.06 is "attacks"

So... What the hell are we talking about here?


I'm using: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/products/ogre6e/img/ogre_ruleboo...

I'll have to open the box and check to see if there is something drastically different about the final printed version, but there shouldn't be. What rules are you looking at?
 
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King of the Dead
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granitepenguin wrote:
I'm using: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/products/ogre6e/img/ogre_ruleboo...

I'll have to open the box and check to see if there is something drastically different about the final printed version, but there shouldn't be. What rules are you looking at?


Ah. I see.

I've got the small box Ogre/GEV rules. The one that you flip upside down to get the other rules.

ISBN 1-55634-186-5 Fourth edition

 
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David Rock

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Nazhuret wrote:
granitepenguin wrote:
I'm using: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/products/ogre6e/img/ogre_ruleboo...

I'll have to open the box and check to see if there is something drastically different about the final printed version, but there shouldn't be. What rules are you looking at?


Ah. I see.

I've got the small box Ogre/GEV rules. The one that you flip upside down to get the other rules.

ISBN 1-55634-186-5 Fourth edition



Yeah, that will do it. I had a feeling you were going to say that. :-)

Since all of this came up related to the new Designer's Edition, I assumed that's what you were referring to when you said "Ogre Deluxe Edition," since the version that is actually called "Ogre Deluxe Edition" doesn't have case numbering at all.

Everything that's been said up to this point still applies to the older Ogre/G.E.V. box; it's just covered in different places. For example:

topic old rule -> new rule
limit on ramming: 5.035 -> 6.01.1
Infantry Overruns: 5.04 -> 6.06
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Talorien
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Clipper wrote:
I'm a little confused by that. Section 7.12.1 states that the defender (not the attacker) can split stacked infantry when they are first attacked, not when combat begins; and Section 7.05.1 says that you can't fire AP at the same unit more than once each turn.

So if the attacker decides to only fire his AP at stacked groups of infantry (which could either have just split on that attack or may have split during an earlier attack), is the spillover fire also considered fired at the other groups of infantry?


Spillover attacks do not count toward the one-per-turn limit in 7.05.1. Only actual targeted fire (not spillover) counts against the limit.

Note also that Overrun fire rounds are an exception to 7.05.1. In Overrun, each fire round is like a "turn" of fire, so the once-per-turn limit is treated as a once-per-fire-round limit instead.

I hope that helps!
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