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Subject: The biggest disappointment in my gaming life... rss

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Brian Morris
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I think Fantasy Flight in part is a victim of it's own success when it comes to Battlelore. By that I mean when you think of what Fantasy Flight has done in the past 10 years (Arkham Horror, Descent, Fury of Dracula, Battlestar Galactica) you're happy as hell the day you found out they now had Battlelore. You went "Yeah, we're saved!". Fantasy Flight meanwhile looked at Battlelore and went "Houston we have a problem".

In short we had pretty high expectations when Fantasy Flight took over but we didn't realize the challenge it was going to be to turn Battlelore around.

I bought Battlelore first day it was released but eventually traded it away after losing faith with DoW's handling of the system. This week I traded back for the game (I traded it to a friend) and I did so knowing full well that Fantasy Flight has been left with a game that was painted into a manufacturing corner so to speak. I still traded for it back because even though things have gotten off to a slower start than a lot of us hoped (me included) I also know that if any company can make this game achieve it's full potential it's Fantasy Flight.
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Awesome thread!!! Ben and Brian's discussion and following comments are great.

I can perfectly understand Ben's frustration with FFG's path and I completely enjoyed the replies by Brian and the much needed info he gave us.

I am one of those who thought that many more good things should happen to BattleLore since FFG took over but now I can see that they have many problems.



Let me put in a good word for Battle Savvy because it gets no love.
I thought that it was a bad change when I first read about it but then I thought that R.Borg knows what he is doing. Add to this that I knew that Days of Wonder changed the game to their whims so I naturally assumed that Mr. Borg is trying to get the game back on track just like he did with Cattle Riders and Goblin Slingers.
So I tried Battle Savvy {and I don't mean that I played just 1-2 times using the rules, more like 10 times}. After a while it just clicked! The new rules look simpler in text but when you actually sit down and play you can see why they are better.
I didn't enjoy having unsupported units that just take damage from even the lowliest Green unit just because they can attack with no fear of retaliation. Didn't seem right. Moreover the Lore in the game seemed too little to have an effect.
More and more people prefered to put levels in the Commander instead of the other Loremasters. With Battle Savvy, Lore is collected in a much better rate making the Loremaster levels more useful.
Additionally players could actually try to outflank their opponents, since they can risk having some units on their own behind enemy units cutting off retreat paths. This contains some risk but without Battle Savvy you couldn't do this at all since a lone unit is a worthless unit.

So more tactics with Battle Savvy. More unit movements. Before Battle Savvy you always had an overarching priority over any other tactic. You MUST have support for your units first before thinking about doing anything else. This is not good in a game that promotes player choice.
With Battle Savvy you can do many things.

Finally, to close this Battle-Savvy-love post there is still a significant risk to having your unit unsupported. Sometimes I read about how Battle Savvy is bad because you don't care for your unit's support any more. This is completely wrong. Ignoring a single flag can make all the difference in a game. Battle Savvy didn't make this aspect of the game obsolete. It just toned down its significance which was too much to begin with.

How many times {before Battle Savvy} have you seen a lowly Green unit attacking a lone Red unit just because they can without fear essentially because the only reason is to take advantage of "free damage"? This bothered me. It seemed totally unrealistic affecting player's choice against common sense if the battle was real.
With Battle Savvy in effect no Green unit will easily attack a Red unit for fear of retaliation.

Enough with Battle Savvy. Let me say that I completely agree with Ben's opinion about Battles of Westeros affecting BattleLore's progress. When they revealed Battles of Westeros I felt exactly how Ben describes it in his thread title: The biggest disappointment of my gaming life EVER and I'm not exaggerating this on purpose.

Not only FFG revealed a game that has BattleLore written on the box but is NOT BattleLore, in a period that we wanted to hear more news about our favorite game's future, they based it on a completely different universe {which I couldn't care less about}, they made it incompatible {which is actually a good thing now that I think of it} and people that are responsible for BattleLore are responsible for BoW too.
How can I be happy about this?
How can anyone think that it doesn't matter?
How can anyone believe that this is not going to affect BattleLore's design process AT ALL?

I surely can't and won't believe that BoW existence won't affect BL's future in any way. I believe that it already is affecting future desicions about BL as we speak. GenCon is a good testing ground for new games and this includes Battles of Westeros.

Anyway , let's just hope that we are going to hear big news about original BL soon and I'm not counting the inevitable Dwarven expansion as big news...


Meanwhile, keep up the meaningful discussions. thumbsup


P.S. I'd really like Mr Borg to finally release to us the BattleLore game that HE plays in his table either with the form of expansions or as a PDF if FFG decides to shut down BattleLore. It will be such a shame if this game will never be completed as Mr Borg envisioned it.

The potential for this game is enormous and the only reason that I kept buying the mediocre DoW expansions was that I wanted to support the game until it reached its full potential. This still remains to be seen even after all those years but if there is a company that can make it happen it is indeed FFG.

So go (original) BattleLore, go FFG!!! meeple
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This discussion has restored my hope in BattleLore. And now back to painting... (which won't end in the next 10 years... and that's only the base set!)

From gallery of Sevej
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I really wish that I could share the optimism, but I'm having trouble.

If FFG really cared about the game, how hard would it be to release 1 or 2 scenarios a month online? Richard supposedly has hundreds of them. With a minimum of effort, FFG could keep the fans interested and build the community by supporting the game.

Along the same lines, where is the FAQ? I'm sure that some fans would be willing to help put one together (similar to the efforts that made the M'44 FAQ). A few years ago, a FFG employee posted that he was working on it, and nothing was ever heard again.

It continually frustrates me when game companies release modular game systems and then fail to provide web content that would not require too much effort.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see FFG's handling of the franchise as an improvement over DOW.

I just don't understand...

Geoff
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I just hope FF doesn't stray to far from what was has already been released. One of the confusing things about getting back into Battlelore like I have done is hearing about how this rule has been changed and this rule has been changed. Now I'm reading about the Goblin Band sort of becoming persona non grata.

Every expansion it seems doesn't just add new units but changes previous rules. This can frustrate current players and confuse new players. It's making it difficult for me to get back into the game because I don't know what expansions to get and how they will fit in with what I already have.
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mrbeankc wrote:
I just hope FF doesn't stray to far from what was has already been released. One of the confusing things about getting back into Battlelore like I have done is hearing about how this rule has been changed and this rule has been changed. Now I'm reading about the Goblin Band sort of becoming persona non grata.

Every expansion it seems doesn't just add new units but changes previous rules. This can frustrate current players and confuse new players. It's making it difficult for me to get back into the game because I don't know what expansions to get and how they will fit in with what I already have.
I completely agree with this. Which rules are supposed to be used for the Cattle riders and Goblin slingers? Were the DOW scenarios designed for one or the other rule?

And which version of the Creatures rules is official?

Even after reading the rules several times, I'm still not sure how to integrate Heroes into regular scenarios.

One thing I would really like to see is a campaign system for BattleLore similar to the M'44 Campaign book. With the addition of Heroes, it seems that BattleLore would be ideally suited for this treatment.
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I am a bit confused over the confusion of which rules to use. FFG owns the game so if they update a rule, that rule is now official. If you want to use the old rules, go for it. But what is official is pretty clear.

If Richard designed the scenario and expected the Cattle Riders to have their beefed up options, then the scenario should be playtested for the "correct" rules. All the new Cattle Riders do are add 1 additional die in their 2nd attack due to a pursuit. It also clarifies that they can gain ground but not pursue an additional hex and that since they move like Red Cavalry, that they can then move up to 3 hexes with a Mounted Charge tactic card like Red Cavalry would as well. Similarly, the only new rule added to the Sling is that if they don't move, they can also add 1 die to therei attack. So all we are talking about here is 2 units that get one more die - which hasn't changed any rules, just updated weapon cards.

As to Creatures, the updated rules override all existing Creature rules basically replacing the chapter in the basic rulebook. This actually answers a lot of questions by getting rid of power-ups and lore storage on monsters and defines their levels. So most of what is needed in an FAQ has been answered here in regards to creatures.

As to Battle Savvy, it is used in scenarios published by FFG and going forward, you can choose to implement them in the old scenarios or just play it as printed.

As to the FAQ, I don't recall who was in charge of that but I suspect JR, who was the Product Manager for both Arkham Horror and BattleLore. Unfortunately, I just found out he no longer works for FFG. But while there are some unaswered questions and a few clarifications needed, I just don't see an immediate need for an FAQ at this point. To me the biggest question would be how everything combines. But if you do the research and sit down with all the rulebooks, you can make a safe assmuption where pieces can be inserted, heroes included, during set-up.

As to publishing web-scenarios, I think that would be great but don't see that as failure on FFG's part if they choose not to at this moment. They did just publish a bunch through the 3 most recent expansions.

So I am having trouble seeing where there is all this confusion. Rule-wise, not much has changed that is not clearly documented. We have a new rule for Battle Savvy that is technically only used for the FFG scenarios, updated weapon cards for two units and a major rewrite of the Creature rules that are available for download. If I overlooked something, please point me to it.
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gheintze wrote:
mrbeankc wrote:
I just hope FF doesn't stray to far from what was has already been released. One of the confusing things about getting back into Battlelore like I have done is hearing about how this rule has been changed and this rule has been changed. Now I'm reading about the Goblin Band sort of becoming persona non grata.

Every expansion it seems doesn't just add new units but changes previous rules. This can frustrate current players and confuse new players. It's making it difficult for me to get back into the game because I don't know what expansions to get and how they will fit in with what I already have.
I completely agree with this. Which rules are supposed to be used for the Cattle riders and Goblin slingers?
Don't panic. There are no big changes and every expansion did NOT change the rules.

Some units were corrected by R.Borg for balance reasons {because DoW had changed them and made them useless}.

The Creature rules were changed to make the Creatures more like well... like creatures and not like organized units as they were before.

Finally the Battle Savvy rules are considered the new official way to play BattleLore. They are pretty simple to understand and use. There is no need to panic and absolutely no reason to be confused about which expansions you should buy.

For the Slingers and Riders question, use the new rules. Richard Borg's real version of the units. DoW versions sucked.

If you don't know the changes you can see them here:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/battlelore/uni...
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/battlelore/uni...
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/battlelore/tro...
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/battlelore/tro...


Quote:
Were the DOW scenarios designed for one or the other rule?
I guess that the scenarios were tested with the real version and not the DoW version. I just cannot imagine Mr. Borg testing a scenario with changed rules from another person. I know I wouldn't. It's his game.

Anyway, does it really matter? We have lots and lots of other scenarios to play.

Quote:
And which version of the Creatures rules is official?
The latest version released by FFG, see here:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/battlelore/BL_...


Quote:
Even after reading the rules several times, I'm still not sure how to integrate Heroes into regular scenarios.
It's pretty simple actually. Each camp gets a Hero and just before playing the first turn they place him in a Hero-Friendly hex with player order. Then play the scenario as normal. Couldn't get any easier.

Quote:
One thing I would really like to see is a campaign system for BattleLore similar to the M'44 Campaign book. With the addition of Heroes, it seems that BattleLore would be ideally suited for this treatment.
ANYTHING new about BattleLore would be good at this point... soblue
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mrbeankc wrote:
Now I'm reading about the Goblin Band sort of becoming persona non grata.
I am not sure where you read this. If anything, FFG will probably get away from the "silly" aspect of some of the DOW units but thery are out there and still supported. In fact, the new Deployment cards from Horrific Hordes contains the Goblin Band on the Deplyment card. So it seems to me that FFG is still utilizing this unit.

Quote:
Every expansion it seems doesn't just add new units but changes previous rules.
Every Memoir 44 expansion adds new rules. Why can't BattleLore do the same? As I pointed out above, we are really talking about 1 new additional rule, 2 reference card updates, and the only major change being a streamlined version of the rules. Nothing is incompitable in my opinion and if you want to buy the new units and use the DOW rules in their entirity, you should be fine. I am pretty sure Toddrew is doing that - or at least picking and choosing what he uses and he is the most faithful BL player I know.

Quote:
This can frustrate current players and confuse new players. It's making it difficult for me to get back into the game because I don't know what expansions to get and how they will fit in with what I already have.
Depending when you jumped out exactly, i don't know that you are really missing that much.

Heroes definitiely changes things up but only affecting the couple units you place on the board. It is self-contained so if you pick it up, you can see what rules changed and how this affects the game. The rules are online so you can read for yourself if this is an "upgrade" that you want.

Creatures and Dragons are just offering more creatures. As always, you can take an old scenario and insert this creature in place of the Spider, Giant, or Elemental. Or use any of the new scenarios that come with the expansion. Or place them on your Call to Arms deployment cards that come up. Not much changes except the Creature rules - which again, you can still get away with using the old rules if you are comfortable with them.

Horrific Hordes is "the same" as Goblin Mauraders and Goblin Skirmishes and every other "specialist" pack that has been out. For speical units you get the reference card and the upgrade card. Plus this comes with new Deployment cards that A) "fix" a few of the old cards and B) allow you to now deploy a Goblin Army.

Sop really nothing has changed with these offerings and they follow the MO DOW established.
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
if you do the research and sit down with all the rulebooks, you can make a safe assmuption where pieces can be inserted, heroes included, during set-up.
Brian you went from saying there really isn't that much confusion or things changed to writing a War and Peace post explaining about all the changes made.

The section above that you wrote I think illustrates what I was talking about. This concept that a player needs to do research and sit down with multiple rulebooks to play is a problem. That's fine for the person who is super into Battlelore but it's a really big turn off for any casual player.

We have changes as to how Creatures work, the Cattle Riders and the slingers. Battle Savvy that is "technically only used for the FFG scenarios". You point out that these changes are not big changes which is true but the problem is there's a lot of them and the changes are scattered all over the place.

99% of people who want to play Battlelore don't want to have to research, study and page through numerous rule books with changes to figure out how to play it properly. This is the knock on the game right now as it stands and is perhaps the biggest problem the game has at this point going forward in terms of how it's viewed by players.

I think what might be good for Fantasy Flight is to publish one singular new rulebook or maybe a mini update kit covering how the game is suppose to work today. All these changes may be for the better and individually they may not be huge but when you have this many spread out like they are there needs to be something that brings them together for the casual player.

Quote:
Edited to add this as another example from another post above. If I want to see what the changes are for the Cattle Riders and Slingers here are four different places for me to look. How many casual players want to do all that running around for one rule change?

Don't misunderstand. I am not trying to trash the game or Fantasy Flight. I'm saying this is what Battlelore looks like right now from the perspective of a casual player. To you Brian your posts and others were simple because you know the game so well that you ran Fantasy Flight's Battlelore stuff at the convention. For a casual player though all these long posts on here explaining these rule changes and all these links to look at to learn what's changed and all the other stuff is simply the kind of thing that would make them walk away from getting into the game. There needs to be something to bring all of this together in one place.
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mrbeankc wrote:

I think what might be good for Fantasy Flight is to publish one singular new rulebook or maybe a mini update kit covering how the game is suppose to work today. All these changes may be for the better and individually they may not be huge but when you have this many spread out like they are there needs to be something that brings them together for the casual player.
I would like to see this too. They have put out an 'Updated Creature Rules' booklet on their site but I think an Update Kit or something like you're mentioning would be a good thing to clear it all up for new or returning players.

Since I've kept up with it I feel like I know what's going on, but if I were new or returning, I think I might be a little flustered with it all as well.
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mrbeankc wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
if you do the research and sit down with all the rulebooks, you can make a safe assmuption where pieces can be inserted, heroes included, during set-up.
Brian you went from saying there really isn't that much confusion or things changed to writing a War and Peace post explaining about all the changes made.

The section above that you wrote I think illustrates what I was talking about. This concept that a player needs to do research and sit down with multiple rulebooks to play is a problem. That's fine for the person who is super into Battlelore but it's a really big turn off for any casual player.

We have changes as to how Creatures work, the Cattle Riders and the slingers. Battle Savvy that is "technically only used for the FFG scenarios". You point out that these changes are not big changes which is true but the problem is there's a lot of them and the changes are scattered all over the place.

99% of people who want to play Battlelore don't want to have to research, study and page through numerous rule books with changes to figure out how to play it properly. This is the knock on the game right now as it stands and is perhaps the biggest problem the game has at this point going forward in terms of how it's viewed by players.

I think what might be good for Fantasy Flight is to publish one singular new rulebook or maybe a mini update kit covering how the game is suppose to work today. All these changes may be for the better and individually they may not be huge but when you have this many spread out like they are there needs to be something that brings them together for the casual player.
Did you see my post above Brian's? I posted 5 links that contain just about everything you need to be up-to-date with the game and this is assuming you want to have all the new expansions, play with Creatures, use the Slingers and the Riders. If you don't use some of the above, you don't have to read about them.

You make it look a lot harder than it really is, really! 4 out of 5 of the links contain tiny changes to some unit abilities and only the new creature rules require more than one minute of your time to read and understand. meeple

Overall, you need 5 minutes to read them all and you are 100% ready to play BattleLore even after years of absence. 5 minutes is a huge burden for a casual player? I don't think so.
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I'm not a fan of block gamesin general but I am intruiged by the idea of a C&C: Fantasy line. That sounds like something GMT could pull off quite well... with lots of room for expansions.

Brian
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Bowmangr wrote:

Did you see my post above Brian's? I posted 5 links that contain just about everything you need to be up-to-date with the game and this is assuming you want to have all the new expansions, play with Creatures, use the Slingers and the Riders. If you don't use some of the above, you don't have to read about them.

You make it look a lot harder than it really is, really! 4 out of 5 of the links contain tiny changes to some unit abilities and only the new creature rules require more than one minute of your time to read and understand. meeple

Overall, you need 5 minutes to read them all and you are 100% ready to play BattleLore even after years of absence. 5 minutes is a huge burden for a casual player? I don't think so.
Yeah and I made an addition to my original post on that. My point is (and your post is another example of this) is that this information is spread out over multiple locations. Fantasy Flight has 13 PDF files up on their website just of rules. Check out this page.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm...

All of the changes we're talking about are on that page in the various PDF files. The problem is there are about 20 PDF files with rules, weapon cards, unit cards, muster sheets and all that. Good information but what I would like to see is all of that pulled together in one new rulebook, expansion or whatever rather than having to have 13 or however many separate ones.
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I should add that what I am suggesting might not be feasible at this time. Until Fantasy Flight can solve the manufacturing dilemma with the base game a new comprehensive base rule book is unlikely. In the meantime I plan on using Universalhead's excellent rule summery which he recently updated and covers a lot of this.
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mrbeankc wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
if you do the research and sit down with all the rulebooks, you can make a safe assmuption where pieces can be inserted, heroes included, during set-up.
Brian you went from saying there really isn't that much confusion or things changed to writing a War and Peace post explaining about all the changes made.
No, I addressed many points in that thread.

There are 3 rule changes:

1) Battle Savvy which is a concept introduced in all FFG expansions. If you want to use this with the old DOW, that's your perrogative. If you get the FFG expansions, you have the info you need. All I am saying is this particular point is like complaining in Memoir about Japanese Infantry getting to move 2 and battle or battle with 4 at full strength. It is an addded rule, not a change per se.

2) Cattle riders and Slings were revised. The links above are for people who want to print out the reference card for their own records. OR buy Horrific Hordes and the replacement card is there for slingers and the assmuption is the next Dwarven expansion will have the Cattle riders updated. I don't see how we can complain about FFG providing corrected cards to a DOW error. In addition, FFG is providing real Troll cards in the Dragon expansion since DOW never published those. And they are giving you a bridge token as well since DOW only ever printed these items on the battle map.

3) Creatures is the only real rule changes and you can print out a small booklet to replace the section in the rules. That is only one link you need to look up.

Quote:
99% of people who want to play Battlelore don't want to have to research, study and page through numerous rule books with changes to figure out how to play it properly. This is the knock on the game right now as it stands and is perhaps the biggest problem the game has at this point going forward in terms of how it's viewed by players.
This is about the only thing I agree with but I am talking about something other than "the rules" and the changes. What I am specifically talking about in this point is trying to figure out how to use Epic ... and Call to Arms ... and Heroes.... and get it all set up based on whether you are using Organized Call to Arms, or Impromptu CtA or Epic, or team play Epic or Reluctant Allies. Then I totally agree FFG needs to give us a revised summary of SETUP (not rules) on how to combine all of these. I have been maintaining a list ever since DOW had this to try to get it approved as the official format. It is what I used this past week.

BUT, a person, whether new or getting back into it after a hiatius, shouldn't really be worried about this unless they are throwing everything together. A creature expansion is ready to be played out of the box. The Horrific Hordes are ready to play out of the box.

Quote:
Don't misunderstand. I am not trying to trash the game or Fantasy Flight. I'm saying this is what Battlelore looks like right now from the perspective of a casual player. To you Brian your posts and others were simple because you know the game so well that you ran Fantasy Flight's Battlelore stuff at the convention. For a casual player though all these long posts on here explaining these rule changes and all these links to look at to learn what's changed and all the other stuff is simply the kind of thing that would make them walk away from getting into the game. There needs to be something to bring all of this together in one place.
And please don't get me wrong either. I am not trying to downplay or blindly defend. All I am saying is you and gheintze are over-thinking this. Despite my numerous wordy attempts to set you on the right path, the rule changee really aren't a big deal. As far as I am concerned, there is only ONE change - creatures. Read that and you are basically caught up. Done. That's it.

The rest is cosmetics and will be taken care of if and when you purchase the expansions.
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mrbeankc wrote:
To you Brian your posts and others were simple because you know the game so well that you ran Fantasy Flight's Battlelore stuff at the convention.
I just wanted to point out that it has been OVER 2 and half years since I played a game of BattleLore. Granted, I try to stay up on my rules and have always been well versed with the C&C system, but I am in the same boat as you mostly. The main difference is that I kept my game in storage while you traded yours. I only got the 3 newest expansions less than 2 weeks ago.
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mrbeankc wrote:
Yeah and I made an addition to my original post on that. My point is (and your post is another example of this) is that this information is spread out over multiple locations. Fantasy Flight has 13 PDF files up on their website just of rules. Check out this page.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm...
I think is really an unfair statement. These are all expansion rules with the exception of the updated Creature rules which is what we told you to read and you would be caught up. This is no different than DOW maintaining 11 different rule sets for all their expansions.

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/rules/

Are we clamoring for DOW to reprint a single rulebook to incorporate all of these new items into a base rulebook? That's the argument we are making here.

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All of the changes we're talking about are on that page in the various PDF files. The problem is there are about 20 PDF files with rules, weapon cards, unit cards, muster sheets and all that. Good information but what I would like to see is all of that pulled together in one new rulebook, expansion or whatever rather than having to have 13 or however many separate ones.
Again, totally unfair statement taking what's available out of context.

Your 20 PDFs are 13 rules sets 12 of which are available when you purchase the expansions.
2 are scenarios that give you something to do with DOW;s troll (something previously requested).
2 are reference cards that DOW failed to print and include with their expansion. These are available in the Dragon Epansion so if you have Dragons OR don't have the Troll pack, you can ignore this completeley.
One is a supplimental record sheet that COMES with the expansion. They are just offering you more blanks to print out once you run out.

And the final two are what we have been discussing: Cattle and Slingers. One is already available if you purchase HH the other will most likely be available next.

the muster sheets were the reference pages I created for DOW since they didn't have a clear list of content. All those are are summaries of the components. So those can all be discounted. FFG only posted them because when DOW shipped in everything it was all mixed together and FFG couldn't figure out what they had.

So really, we are talking about 2 things you need out of the 20. The Creature update and the Cattle Riders. Everything else is available in pre-printed form from FFG (except the 2 Troll scenarios).

I really don't think we should be criticizing a company for offering so much web content support and not force you to buy the expansions to get the corrections.
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

I think is really an unfair statement. These are all expansion rules with the exception of the updated Creature rules which is what we told you to read and you would be caught up. This is no different than DOW maintaining 11 different rule sets for all their expansions.

http://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/content/rules/

Are we clamoring for DOW to reprint a single rulebook to incorporate all of these new items into a base rulebook? That's the argument we are making here.
Yes, but DOW has a comprehensive FAQ and card compendium for Memoir which has all the clarifications and references to the page number and rule book you need. It's much easier to find the rules that way. And there has been some discussion on the DOW forums about a comprehensive rule set for Memoir '44.

I remember these revisions coming out, but to be honest, I haven't really played BattleLore since FFG took over. All I'm saying is that an FAQ would really help to clarify the official rules and put all the info in one place. And it would also help to clarify which rules were applied to which scenarios.

I'm really not trying to be overcritical, and I did buy BoW and have nad enjoy several other FFG games. I'm just not seeing the alleged improvement over DoW's handling of the game.

I also agree with you that a comprehensive setup guide to clarify how to use all the expansions would also be helpful.

Besides, this really is a matter of opinion. I (and others) find that changing the rules from the older versions and not having an FAQ is confusing. You don't think so. To each his own...

And as I said above, DoW had just as much web support if not more for the game -- scenario editor, Card Compendium, Creature Compendium, fanmade scenarios, and several web-released scenarios. I would have thought that FFG would have caught up two years into the game...

Geoff

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gheintze wrote:
All I'm saying is that an FAQ would really help to clarify the official rules and put all the info in one place. And it would also help to clarify which rules were applied to which scenarios.
And all I am saying is the rules that have been updated are all basically in the Creature update. To quote the update:

Quote:
In these updated rules for using Creatures in BattleLore, we have focused on the specific rules sections that have generated the most player questions. Therefore, much of this material will be familiar to you, and the rest has been streamlined to help increase gameplay balance and improve clarity.
Any scenarios affected have the specific rules mentioned.
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I agree that the lack of a scenario editor and FAQ are very disappointing, but I don't agree with your comment on the rules changes.

The game has many expansions, most rule changes/additions (except creatures) require the actual expansion to be used. Saying that having 20 pdfs up on the site is a bad thing is not fair or accurate. Most are rulebooks for expansions. The Troll card was reprinted in one of the more recent expansions, something they didn't have to do.

The only rules that have changed are Battle Savvy and the Creatures rules. Battle Savvy is a minor rule change that has a large effect on play. Mechanically its a simple change.
The creatures rules have also changed, not all of which I agree with (no storing Lore) but they do solve issues that had arisen in DOW times.

These two rule changes are very minor in the scheme of such a huge game.

The other things (expansion rules and sling + cow cavalry) are what I would call "additions" and do not constitute changing of the rules. They only apply when that expansion is in play.

SOME POSITIVE STEPS THAT FFG COULD TAKE:

There is a lot to keep track of in such a large game, and I agree that with so many expansions, a consolidated rulebook would be a very handy product that I feel would sell well (if not similar to the recent Tannhauser one - $5 PDF or $10 hard copy)

A campaign book/scenario book - would sell very well and would be a great addition to the game.

Online scenario editor - that thing was awesome and is sadly missed.

A comprehensive FAQ/Card compendium

More Races

Racial Leaders/Heroes

More Lore cards

I agree, some of these things would have been great to have been done already, but since they're not - why not start now?

Cheers,
Ben.



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Boromir_and_Kermit wrote:
I agree that the lack of a scenario editor and FAQ are very disappointing, but I don't agree with your comment on the rules changes.

The game has many expansions, most rule changes/additions (except creatures) require the actual expansion to be used. Saying that having 20 pdfs up on the site is a bad thing is not fair or accurate. Most are rulebooks for expansions. The Troll card was reprinted in one of the more recent expansions, something they didn't have to do.

The only rules that have changed are Battle Savvy and the Creatures rules. Battle Savvy is a minor rule change that has a large effect on play. Mechanically its a simple change.
The creatures rules have also changed, not all of which I agree with (no storing Lore) but they do solve issues that had arisen in DOW times.

These two rule changes are very minor in the scheme of such a huge game.

The other things (expansion rules and sling + cow cavalry) are what I would call "additions" and do not constitute changing of the rules. They only apply when that expansion is in play.

SOME POSITIVE STEPS THAT FFG COULD TAKE:

There is a lot to keep track of in such a large game, and I agree that with so many expansions, a consolidated rulebook would be a very handy product that I feel would sell well (if not similar to the recent Tannhauser one - $5 PDF or $10 hard copy)

A campaign book/scenario book - would sell very well and would be a great addition to the game.

Online scenario editor - that thing was awesome and is sadly missed.

A comprehensive FAQ/Card compendium

More Races

Racial Leaders/Heroes

More Lore cards

I agree, some of these things would have been great to have been done already, but since they're not - why not start now?

Cheers,
Ben.




Great post, Ben.

It's just unfortunate that they couldn't restart the base game adding these rules in -- the FFG rules for BattleLore. And I would find it helpful if these rules were listed in an FAQ with an explanation. I just like things to be official and organized -- it's one of my hangups.

I understand that it's minor in the grand scheme of things, but it's the little things that game companies do that make a positive impression and show that they are supporting a system.

Geoff

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Bowmangr wrote:
P.S. I'd really like Mr Borg to finally release to us the BattleLore game that HE plays in his table either with the form of expansions or as a PDF if FFG decides to shut down BattleLore. It will be such a shame if this game will never be completed as Mr Borg envisioned it.
There is no way that is going to happen while the title is under contract. If FFG retracts his statements about what FFG might do, there is no way they are going to let him distribute any pdfs or scenarios directly, let alone any expansions.

And I wouldn't get hung up on there being some alternate BL out there. Besides just having more stuff, I doubt there are any major changes.
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
P.S. I'd really like Mr Borg to finally release to us the BattleLore game that HE plays in his table either with the form of expansions or as a PDF if FFG decides to shut down BattleLore. It will be such a shame if this game will never be completed as Mr Borg envisioned it.
There is no way that is going to happen while the title is under contract. If FFG retracts his statements about what FFG might do, there is no way they are going to let him distribute any pdfs or scenarios directly, let alone any expansions.

And I wouldn't get hung up on there being some alternate BL out there. Besides just having more stuff, I doubt there are any major changes.
Of course this is not going to happen. When I said "in the form of expansions" I meant FFG expansions not some other obscure company.

As for the game R.Borg is playing on his table, there may not be any major changes as you say but having 25 Lore cards for each loremaster, more races, more terrain, even campaign rules and/or siege rules possibly is not just "more stuff", don't you think?

Either way, I want this "more stuff". meeple
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Oh, when you start stating PDFs and other expansions, it sounded like you wanted it outside of FFG.

Truth be told, I think the only thing we are "missing" is the Campaign rules. Once we have that, I think we have the entire foundation of the system: basic, epic, army deployment, heroes, creatures, campaigns, and army model.

Any races that come out will just be "more stuff." We may get race specific heroes which will just be tweaks of existing heroes as the basic concepts are now established. Any new races will obviously have new features but the same basic chracteristics. All you are going to see is, for example, a unit that battles with one more or one less die than normal. Or is Bold 3 or Frightened 2. Or hits on Lore or misses on Banner color. Or crosses over impassable terrain or can't move at all. Or has 1 more figure or 1 less figure in the unit, etc. I don't think races will be anything earth shattering and will just follow the patterns established in Memoir and Ancients.

But I agree that more stuff, even if it is just minor tweaks to give some additional flavor, is wanted, nay needed!

OH, and if the FFG support continues, I do expect to see MORE Lore cards. Again, I assume just tweaks to what we have but with some power none the less.
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