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Subject: Does starvation still work? rss

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Dave Eisen
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It was never considered an overpowered strategy. It was considered one of many strategies a player can take: it wins sometimes, it loses sometimes.
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William Crispin
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The problem with it was that it irritated some people who felt it ran counter to the theme of the game to allow starvation as a viable strategy.
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Dave Eisen
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The problem I have with it is not that at all. It's that it's a free gift to the player to the left of starvation guy. He gets all of the farm advances starvation guy would have taken and thus gets a very good position having done nothing special other than choosing a good seat at the table.
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William Crispin
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dkeisen wrote:

The problem I have with it is not that at all. It's that it's a free gift to the player to the left of starvation guy. He gets all of the farm advances starvation guy would have taken and thus gets a very good position having done nothing special other than choosing a good seat at the table.


True enough. There are a couple other places in the game where sitting downstream from a player who plays a certain way can certainly benefit you.
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Randall Bart
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There is no starvation in Stone Age.
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Randall Bart
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galathonredd wrote:
I think you should lose 10 points and a CaveMeeple every time you starve


There is no starvation in Stone Age. You are inventing a concept which is absent from the game.
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matt feldman
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Barticus88 wrote:
galathonredd wrote:
I think you should lose 10 points and a CaveMeeple every time you starve


There is no starvation in Stone Age. You are inventing a concept which is absent from the game.


you've said this twice now, and i'm interested but confused b/c you really aren't contributing to the conversation. certainly the rules address the issue. are you objecting b/c the rules don't use the word starvation?
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Steve Duff
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For some reason, this silly argument about the word "starvation" comes up repeatedly.

Yes, the word starvation does not appear in the rules. It's definition does, in the form of a penalty for lacking "sufficient food to feed his people".

None of which is relevant anyway, because it's the name of a strategy, and wouldn't be expected to be found in the rulebook, since it not so surprisingly contains rules, not strategies.

But fine, refer to the strategy as the "insufficient food to feed his people strategy" if it makes you feel better. Doesn't change a thing.
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Randall Bart
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Complaining that Stone Age does not deal with starvation properly is like complaining that Ticket to Ride doesn't deal with derailment properly, or Agricola doesn't deal with bubonic plague properly. It's just not there. There is no starvation in Stone Age. Adding starvation to Stone Age is a variant.
 
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matt feldman
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Barticus88 wrote:
Complaining that Stone Age does not deal with starvation properly is like complaining that Ticket to Ride doesn't deal with derailment properly, or Agricola doesn't deal with bubonic plague properly. It's just not there. There is no starvation in Stone Age. Adding starvation to Stone Age is a variant.


wait but agricola doesn't deal with rats and sanitation. TTR doesn't address safety issues. stone age does, in fact, deal with what happens if you don't have enough food. so i don't get the vehemencewhistle
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Todd McCorkle
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jojobinks wrote:
Barticus88 wrote:
Complaining that Stone Age does not deal with starvation properly is like complaining that Ticket to Ride doesn't deal with derailment properly, or Agricola doesn't deal with bubonic plague properly. It's just not there. There is no starvation in Stone Age. Adding starvation to Stone Age is a variant.


wait but agricola doesn't deal with rats and sanitation. TTR doesn't address safety issues. stone age does, in fact, deal with what happens if you don't have enough food. so i don't get the vehemencewhistle

bolded for emphasis...

Apparently, a lot of people didn't like how the game dealt with lack of food. They cite 'unthematic' as their reason and change the rules because they are stuck in a 'starving' mindset. I view it as trading 10pts for the needed food, but I really don't care for the explanation as long as the rules make for a good game. Most of the suggested 'fixes' seem to really break the balance of the game to me. ie, instead of having multiple paths/choices, the fixes force people into 1 strategy: get farm. get farm early, get farm often. farm farm farm. (screw you 4th player!).

I still don't understand how the 'somewhat-official-variant' the czech rules use make sense.
"Hmmm, should I place my 2 guys on brick where every 4 pips equal 4 pts... maybe... if I use another dude's action to grab a hut.
-OR-
"should I place those guys to gather food where every 2 pips equals 4pts ... automatically..."
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Tim Koppang
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Barticus88 wrote:
Adding starvation to Stone Age is a variant.

I think you're only confusing the matter. No one is adding anything but a label to a rule (and strategy based around that rule) that is contained in the base game.

You are complaining only about the word "starvation". The posters here are specifically referring not to a variant, but to the rule that states you lose 10 points if you don't have enough food and won't spend additional resources. Calling this a variant is wrong. It's in the rules. If you're objecting to the label, "starvation", fine. Let's move on.

EDIT: If you're complaining about people "fixing" the rules to correct a perceived thematic inconsistency (i.e., "starvation"), then I can understand you're frustration. But the OP isn't really asking about that.
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Randall Bart
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jojobinks wrote:
so i don't get the vehemencewhistle

I don't get it either. Why do people vehemently argue that Stone Age has starvation?
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Joe Rickard
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Barticus88 wrote:
jojobinks wrote:
so i don't get the vehemencewhistle

I don't get it either. Why do people vehemently argue that Stone Age has starvation?
Probably the same reason why alot of people argue that the majority of something in any game gets you such and such when it's really the "plurality" of something. "Majority" is simply what people know it as even if it is technically the wrong term.

In SA, "starvation" is known as not feeding all your cavemeeples and losing 10 VP is, in lieu of whatever the rulebook actually calls it.
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Tommaso Franco
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I suggest a new name:
"No-food Strategy" (that's what it is, right?)

back to the OP, what do you think about it? is it overpowered? do you implement some house rule (e.g. the check version) to prevent it? if so, why? with what result?
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David Lanphear
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Barticus88 wrote:
jojobinks wrote:
so i don't get the vehemencewhistle

I don't get it either. Why do people vehemently argue that Stone Age has starvation?


Because they must of heard of the game I played when I hadn't eaten most of the day. My stomach sounded like an angry T.Rex on the loose. "Starving yoour meeples again?" was a common comment that day. So there yuk
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matt feldman
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Barticus88 wrote:
jojobinks wrote:
so i don't get the vehemencewhistle

I don't get it either. Why do people vehemently argue that Stone Age has starvation?


oh, i see. you're not part of the same conversation as the rest of us. i'll take note and remember not to respond next time.
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Chris Dieckmann
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Quote:
jojobinks wrote:
Barticus88 wrote:
Complaining that Stone Age does not deal with starvation properly is like complaining that Ticket to Ride doesn't deal with derailment properly, or Agricola doesn't deal with bubonic plague properly. It's just not there. There is no starvation in Stone Age. Adding starvation to Stone Age is a variant.


wait but agricola doesn't deal with rats and sanitation. TTR doesn't address safety issues. stone age does, in fact, deal with what happens if you don't have enough food. so i don't get the vehemence



I don't know? Third base.
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Todd McCorkle
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ackmondual wrote:
Barticus88 wrote:
jojobinks wrote:
so i don't get the vehemencewhistle

I don't get it either. Why do people vehemently argue that Stone Age has starvation?
Probably the same reason why alot of people argue that the majority of something in any game gets you such and such when it's really the "plurality" of something. "Majority" is simply what people know it as even if it is technically the wrong term.

In SA, "starvation" is known as not feeding all your cavemeeples and losing 10 VP is, in lieu of whatever the rulebook actually calls it.

responding to the bolded part...

This would be fine EXCEPT that the word 'starvation' appears to be a loaded word and affects the way people think and play. I know players who have heard about the 'starvation strategy' and think "I'm not going to do that. Starving is bad." After watching me win a game using a 'point-eating strategy', they have some variant of "How can you win doing something bad?"

Another example of the term being loaded: "If they're starving, shouldn't the meeples be dieing off? That's what the rules should be..."


Back on topic... I have a fondness for the point-eating strategy personally, but I only use it when it makes sense. I've seen it win by a lot, win by a little, and lose horribly. It's really only overpowering against new players because they don't see it coming and know how to deal with it until seeing it in action a game or 2.
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Jason Sherlock
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It seems that those most vehemently against calling it starvation strategy are those who employ it. You have to call it something; the name seems apt.

I, personally, do not like it. It forces the other players to quickly end the game so that the negative scoring player can't zip ahead at the endgame. For me, it takes a lot of the fun out of the game due to a rules exploit.

Should you use this strategy in a tournament, where there are prizes on the line? Sure. Should it be used in a friendly game or when teaching new players? I don't think so.

That is my opinion. Many will agree with me and many wont.
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Randall Bart
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jackalope wrote:
It seems that those most vehemently against calling it starvation strategy are those who employ it. You have to call it something; the name seems apt.

How about calling it the Great Hunger?
 
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Chris Stanton
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jackalope wrote:

Should you use this strategy in a tournament, where there are prizes on the line? Sure. Should it be used in a friendly game or when teaching new players? I don't think so.


I'm going to be one that won't.
Should I not use Civ cards in a friendly game? or huts? or ....You get the point.
Whatever your opinion on it, it is an allowed strategy, just the same as any other strategy employed.

When teaching new players, I wouldn't use it as a strategy...but I would certainly do it at some point during the game to illustrate what happens. (Yes, a somewhat different thing)

With regards to the OP- it's a reasonable strategy & a competitive one. It isn't game-breaking. Go ahead & get the game
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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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dkeisen wrote:

The problem I have with it is not that at all. It's that it's a free gift to the player to the left of starvation guy. He gets all of the farm advances starvation guy would have taken and thus gets a very good position having done nothing special other than choosing a good seat at the table.


Which in turn is a free gift to the person to their left, letting them pick up all the population increases, letting them go starvation. Four player games always fall out as two starvationists opposite two turbo-farmers, and I think the farmers have a very slight edge, but it's very close. Starvation has a higher theoretical efficiency, but failure to hit that efficiency costs you real points that you need to make up by earning real points, while farmers have a lower efficiency but give up hypothetical points they didn't actually earn in the first place. I refuse to play three-player, though, where you either have two normal players and a starvationist, or two starvationists and a normal player, and the odd one out always wins due to a lack of contention for what they need.
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Randall Bart
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Santiago wrote:
give up hypothetical points they didn't actually earn in the first place.

If you can understand what this means, you can understand the math of Stone Age.
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