Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

Black Friday» Forums » Rules

Subject: Awful rules, need clarifications rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Akke Monasso
Netherlands
Aalten
Achterhoek
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmb
We do not abort games often, but we did abort our first game of Schwarzer Freitag because we could not make sense of the game. The rules of the published Kosmos version are badly organized - no bullet points for actions, no explanation why certain things need to be done. But also, some rules are open to several interpretations which can have a major impact on gameplay. I will note my interpretations below for discussion.

Subventions - you can take multiple subventions per turn, but can only own two at the start of the game. You have to pay 1 per subvention whenever a price change happens. There are 3 different subvention cards of different values: 1 (20), 2(40) and 5 (100). The smaller number marks the number of subventions the card stands for, so you cannot take the 5 (100) card at the start of the game. The larger number shows the amount of money you take when you receive the subventions. The smaller number also shows the amount of money you pay back in interest on every price change. The subventions cannot be returned to the stock.

While writing this post, I took the manual and tried to make sense of the rules for selling stock and how this triggers a price change, but the rules seem to contradict and the examples do not seem to match the pictures. I give up and do not want to spend anymore time on this. I will get back to this when I feel like it. Sorry. angry



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Brosius
United States
Needham Heights
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
My favorite 18xx game for six players is two games of 1846 with three players each.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Subventions come in different denominations just like money does, simply for convenience. You can take them as desired, up to the current limit. You don't pay them back because your goal is to have as much gold in your Swiss bank account when the crash comes.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Carver
United Kingdom
Cobham
Surrey, UK
flag msg tools
designer
I thoroughly agree with Akke. Since none of the rules are what I call 'intuitive' (so need to be learned) they most desperately need some examples.

I've now read them several times and am still puzzled about the Verkaufsleiste tables (and the black markers in them)

Nor can I immediately see how black 'Aktenkoffer' get into the bag.

Further readings might bring enlightenment but I'm not holding out much hope!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gareth
Switzerland
Zürich
Zürich
flag msg tools
badge
My ass is green, but I don't let it worry me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Consider yourself lucky you could read the Kosmos ones at all: the English language rules are actually completely wrong. Critical rules (particularly around the black cases) are either missing or directly in contradiction to how the game should be played. I am not joking.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Friedemann Friese
Germany
Bremen
Bremen
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I hope I will get an english rule soon, to see what went wrong there. (if there are real mistakes or just not so good explained rules that mislead). As only being one day in Essen, I forgot to take one with me.

Here is the clarification for the black suitcases:

1. No black suitcases in the bag at start.

2. For each step the highest stock reaches, comes one into the bag. (from the spaces on the board)

3. Coming (1,2,3,2,2,2...) from the sales chart into the bag.

4. When only one black is drawn, just adjust the silver price by one and throw it back into the bag. (adjust the stocks with the rest of the drawn colored suitcases)

5. 2 or more are drawn. Adjust silver, subtract from each colored suitcase and put them away (not in the market). Later you can use these to put them on the second sales chart, after the third is executed.

Thats it!!

friedemann

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gareth
Switzerland
Zürich
Zürich
flag msg tools
badge
My ass is green, but I don't let it worry me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For your reference, Friedemann, the RGG copy of the English rules explicitly state that when a Price Adjustment is triggered by a sales box, only the coloured suitcases are added to the bag and the black suitcases are simply placed in the supply. Also there is no other mention of adding black suitcases to the bag save for a throwaway sentence in one of the examples which is something like "if any levels are skipped or achieved black suitcases are placed in the bag according to the level" without any further clarification or explanation.

If you want people with RGG copies of your game to actually be able to play it, I would make sure to post something very loud and very clear as to how the black cubes work because the English rules are either vague, missing or actually incorrect. Even the people working the RGG booth in Essen admitted the rules were "buggy" (their words, mine were less polite).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Thornsen
United States
Nottingham
Maryland
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, the English rules included in the RGG edition are really terrible.

1. There is a purple box in the rules that has some sort of Note in it. However, part of the note is a "reminder" that if the last briefcase of a color is removed from the supply, or if there are 3 identical briefcases of the same color on a Sales Chart, the price of that color instantly moves right one space. This was not mentioned anywhere else in the rules other than that Purple "Note" Box!

2. How do Black suitcases get added to the bag? The RGG Rules never say how/when. After reading the forums here, it seems it happens under 2 scenarios:

2A: 5 Sale actions are taken, causing the suitcases (including any black ones) from the sales chart to get added to the bag
2B: Whenever a new "Phase" begins, you add 1 Black suitcase to the bag (We completely missed this rule, so I have no idea if the RGG English rules even mention it)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Hymowitz
United States
Elkridge
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, the quantity of black cases as described in the above post by F.F.
Quote:
Coming (1,2,3,2,2,2...) from the sales chart into the bag.

does not match what the English RGG rules say
Quote:
(1,2,3,2,3,2,3 ...)


We also, while playing, had a few questions not described in the rules:

* "Reload the sales tables" -- from where? from the market?
* What happens if there aren't enough briefcases of a given color to refill the sales table? (it never came up in our game)
* What happens if there aren't enough briefcases in the bag to draw the required number? (we just drew them all.)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cristian Cano
Spain
Sevilla
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, we need that one friendly german guy (better if he has his hair coloured green ) makes a direct translation from german rulebook. I'm content with it being a simply .doc file.

Now I dare not propose a game to my friends because they can take a bad impression of the game without apparently deserving it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Carver
United Kingdom
Cobham
Surrey, UK
flag msg tools
designer
Quote:
Wow, we need that one friendly german guy (better if he has his hair coloured green ) makes a direct translation from german rulebook.


Rules from Friedemann - Yes. Translation of the German rulebook - No. I say this because I had a phone call yesterday from a German friend (well known in games playing circles) saying they also had problems with the (German) rules with the rulebook being passed round the table as each took his turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cristian Cano
Spain
Sevilla
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That are sad news... I think this game is probably better than people are rating, and it's because of the awful rulebook.

This needs an urgent solution!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Hymowitz
United States
Elkridge
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
friedemann wrote:

2. For each step the highest stock reaches, comes one into the bag. (from the spaces on the board)


I don't think this rule is in the English RGG rules either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antonio Izzo
Italy
Bologna
BO
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hymie wrote:

* "Reload the sales tables" -- from where? from the market?
* What happens if there aren't enough briefcases of a given color to refill the sales table? (it never came up in our game)
* What happens if there aren't enough briefcases in the bag to draw the required number? (we just drew them all.)

I have the same questions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas P. Felder
Germany
Munich
Bavaria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hymie wrote:
(...) "Reload the sales tables" -- from where? from the market?

That's correct. After all, there's no other supply of briefcases elsewhere, right? :-)
hymie wrote:
What happens if there aren't enough briefcases of a given color to refill the sales table? (it never came up in our game)

That's extremely unlikely. Players still buying shares when everyone else starts to sell are taking high risks!
hymie wrote:
What happens if there aren't enough briefcases in the bag to draw the required number? (we just drew them all.)

That's correct, too. This simulates the "crash" of the market, as in late game, there are not only a lot of black suitcases in the bag, but also less and less colored briefcases, resulting in drops of share values.
You better have your money invested in Gold/Silver by then... :-)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas P. Felder
Germany
Munich
Bavaria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
aaxiom wrote:
[q="ZetaZeta"]
When you reload the sales table, do the BLACK briefcases come from the BAG, or do you simply leave them empty?

EDIT: If I understand other thread comments correctly, when more than one black suitcase is drawn from the bag, they are set aside for this purpose after resolving the price adjustment phase.

Right.

Q: When do black suitcases get into the bag?
A1: When a sales table get emptied (first sales table: 1 black suitcase, second table 2, third table 3 - as indicated on the board).
A2: Every time a new phase starts. The table numbered from 1-9 with black suitcases on the board always corresponds with the actual phase. Like, in Phase 5 there are 5 black suitcases missing from that table.
Note that by counting missing black suit cases from that table and the sales tables, and those set aside (see answer 3), one can always calculate the number of black suitcases in the bag!
A3: If only one black suitcase gets drawn out of the bag in a price adjustment, it goes back again, after the indicated number of suitcases has been drawn.
Two or more black suitcases get not back in the bag, but are set aside.

Hopefully I made this clear?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.