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Subject: non official 'author suggestion' for a non random start of Vinhos. :) rss

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Vital Lacerda
Portugal
Oeiras
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition
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Hi folks,
I came up with this idea, and publish it here in case you want to start the game of Vinhos without the random drawn of the player order at the setup.

This is not an official rule, but you can use it if you want.

1- Choose at random the turn order to buy the usual initial Vineyard.
2- Adjust the new player order, following the number on the regions bought.
3- in case of two or more players start in the same region, the order doesn't change.
4- Give the difference of Bagos to all players following the usual rules of setup.
(3rd and 4th player - +1000 Bagoos, in a 2 players game 2nd player +1000 Bagos).

Example:

Yellow buys Sado (region 7)
Blue buys Dão (region 3)
Red buys Minho (region 1)
Purple buy Alentejo (region 6)

The turn order is adjusted in the following way:
Red, Blue, Purple and Yellow. Purple and yellow receive more 1000 Bagos each.

Enjoy
Vital

P.S. I tried it a few times, and seems to work fine. If you try it, please leave your feedback and suggestions here, for others to known what you think about it.
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Robby Timmermans
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Wellen
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Sounds like a good idea. I'm going to try this out.
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Alex Rockwell
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Thats pretty cool. If you want first you have to buy the worst region. And Setubal probably gives last turn order.
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Steve Duff
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Is that the case? The regions are arranged worst to best (1 to 8)?

I assumed the little bonuses were to balance them all out, and they were essentially all the same. Which is why I chose #2 in my game.
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Is that the case? The regions are arranged worst to best (1 to 8)?


Not exactly, it depends of your starting position.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Well, region 1 is pretty terrible (the cheap one), its worth getting to save money at some point but not a great first region. Region 7 to start is probably the best imo, IF there are money providing experts available to take with it. So its good that it gives you bad turn order.



What happens if two people take the same region? Which of them should go first?
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KAS
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Alexfrog wrote:
What happens if two people take the same region? Which of them should go first?


See #3- in case of two or more players start in the same region, the order doesn't change
 
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yanliang shi
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I think region 3 is almost the best in setup, sometime worse than 7#.
 
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byrdy p
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We have played this variant;

1- Choose at random the turn order, then each player choose a different
region.
2- Adjust the new player order, 1 to 4 , 2-3, 3-2, and 4-1.
3- Give the difference of Bagos to all players following the usual rules of setup.

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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition
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verbaar1 wrote:
We have played this variant;

1- Choose at random the turn order, then each player choose a different
region.
2- Adjust the new player order, 1 to 4 , 2-3, 3-2, and 4-1.
3- Give the difference of Bagos to all players following the usual rules of setup.



Yes, the reverse order start. It's the better one to experienced players. After all players knew well the power of each vineyard.
But at the first or 2nd game, my advice is to start with the one above or, of course, with the ones state in rules.
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Stephen Michael Hickey
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I like the general concept of the turn order being determined in favour of the player who purchases worst vineyard. I also acknowledge Vitals' comment that the region order is not strictly rated from worst to best.

So while this suggestion is a welcome improvement for those who know the game well, I feel that there are a couple of issues that I would like to see addressed.

For instance, I suspect that the regions that offer a free vineyard at the start should be ranked among the the more highly prized vineyards and not just 4th and 5th.

Another issue I can see is that the worth of Sebutal is entirely dependent on the draw of the 4 expert cards and this can vary considerably. But that's not a big issue insofaras if the expert cards are not so good players will simply not choose Sebutal to begin with.

But it would be good to hear from Vital, after his wealth of experience with the game, the order in which he ranks each region in general.

And if this does not quite match up with the region numbers, I would still much prefer to use Vitals personal order instead of the region numbers for determining reverse turn order.

If this is going to be included as an official variant in the next publication of the rules, then we may as well get the best variant published and not just the simplest one.
 
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition
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Hi Stephen,

Just an idea that worked fine in later tests of the game. In this way players have a strong strategic thinking from their first move. But you are right about some of your points. As the tittle says this is not an official variant, and I was waiting from some comments from you. So thank you for that.

I still working in the variant and I have an idea that can work very well to add different starts in every game. I can send you a geekmail if you want to try it.
Jesse already wrote his preferences about the starting regions in this article. I agrees with him in some and, not much in others, but he exposed very well his points about them.
In many times, the best ones to start depends on the position where you start and the strategy you want to follow.

For now, if you want to start with a variant, and you know what you are doing, whistle I may strongly suggest the 'Reverse starting order'. This one is simple and seems the one who works best in every-way and, the one I'm most inclined to add as an official variant. I had played it a lot since the beginning of my tests. I just don't remember well why I don't stick to it at the final rules.
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mathieu perrenoud
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Quote:
Yes, the reverse order start. It's the better one to experienced players. After all players knew well the power of each vineyard.


Hello Vital,

Could you explain why do you think the 'reverse order start' is the best starting order? I think that starting the game and choosing the domain last are both advantages. Why give them both to the same player. A contrario, the first player to choose his domain will do it blindly and then also be the last to play. Seems a bit unfair to me.

Quote:
I still working in the variant and I have an idea that can work very well to add different starts in every game. I can send you a geekmail if you want to try it.


I'd like to try your other variant. Could you please pm it to me?

Thanks.
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Jacob Lee
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verbaar1 wrote:
We have played this variant;

1- Choose at random the turn order, then each player choose a different
region.
2- Adjust the new player order, 1 to 4 , 2-3, 3-2, and 4-1.
3- Give the difference of Bagos to all players following the usual rules of setup.



Three of us (all played once before) did this variant by accident. I didn't check this thread beforehand and I was trying to remember Vital's starting suggestion - in the end, still played great.

We also thought you couldn't start with the same region as another player and we liked having a forced different setup, but we'll try it the proper way next time.
 
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Sheldon Smith
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Not sure if my thinking is right (as I haven't been able to play yet), but my novice guess feels that region 1 & region 8 are the 2 weakest starting vineyards.
 
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Stephen Michael Hickey
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You are exactly right. It was made region 8 because from what I remember it is not used in the 2 and 3 player game. This variant would therefore need to be made more complicated to take account of this.

Still it would be better to treat region 8 as region zero for the purposes of this variant. But then region 7 varies in value depending on the expert cards that are available so that opens a can of worms as whether it should be rated 7 or even less, if poorer cards are available.

The author has preferred a keep it simple approach. It's never been a problem in practice for us as I don't think I have ever seen anyone buy a region 8 tile yet. 
 
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