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Subject: Attacking with a Mark IV rss

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Stuart
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The rules for G.E.V. say a Mark IV and a Mark V are roughly similar in strength, but that a V will beat a IV most times one-on-one, so I'm wondering if the defense force needs to be scaled back against a lone attacking Mark IV?

I've scoured most of the rulebooks I own, but haven't seen any officially recommended defense strength against a lone Mark IV, other than to give the Ogre some supporting armor of its own, which suggests that there is somewhat of an imbalance when not using a Mark V. It seems to me the defense strength should fall somwehere inbetween that for a Mark III and that for a Mark V, so I'm just checking if anybody has tried various strengths against a Mark IV and found a good balance(or if I've just misssed it in the rules somewhere)?

The same could probably be asked about a Mark I, a Mark II, or a Mark VI Ogre, as well - so, I guess what I'm really wondering is if a formula has been devised for determining the strength of the defense force in any given situation?
 
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Ian Finn
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Why don't you simply do what game designers do: play several games attacking with a Mark IV and see how they turn out. If one side wins a disproportionate number of times, adjust the force settings slightly in favor of the losing side and play more games. Eventually you'll find a balance in the approximate zone of 50-50.

Despite all the talk of formulas and points values you hear about in games, the above is what game designers really do.
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Karl Hiesterman
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I've found that when attacking with either the Fencer or the Mark IV, one of the best solutions is to leave the Defense as is and give the attacking Ogres a few GEVs as escort. That can really even things out for the missile Ogres...
 
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Andrew Walters
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A cool thing about the Ogre mechanics is that different units and different Ogres are better and worse at different things. The Mark IV is pretty much optimized for the Smash The CP! scenario. The extra speed of the Mark IV means that it gets to the CP faster, so you have less time to stop it. I don't believe the defense needs to be scaled back. They need the firepower not because the Mark IV is powerful, but because they need to stop it in very few turns.

All things considered, the IV against the standard 20 armor 30 infantry defense has a better chance of destroying the CP but a reduced chance of escaping the board afterwards, compared to the Mark V on the same defense.

The IV will typically lose to the V in a straight up fight because the V simply has more weapons. The IVs speed is less useful in a slugging match.

So try the IV against the standard defense and see if you disagree.

The nice thing about a straightforward and quick game like this is you can play this out five or six times and see the answer become apparent to you directly.
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Stuart
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Yeah, not really the answers I was looking for . I have tried a lone Mark IV against both Ogre defenses using the G.E.V. map and rules - with the Mark III defense, it was all to easy for the Ogre, and even the Mark V defense was stretched due to the ability of the Ogre to travel underwater much of the way, depending where the CP is located(on the other side of the map, of course, is a highway, which doesn't hurt an already quick Ogre, either). Usually, with the latter, the Ogre managed to reach the CP, but was destroyed shortly thereafter by overwhelming firepower.

My problem is, when I get a chance to play Ogre, there's not generally a lot of time to experiment with various defense strengths, so I was hoping somebody had already done the legwork and it had simply been left unpublished, after all, the game's only been around, what, thirty years now? I understand what has been said about the challenge of addressing the characteristics of each make of Ogre, still, I find it difficult to believe a formula was never developed to ascertain various optimal defense strengths against the different Ogres at some point in time, but maybe that is the case?(As one can probably tell, adding a few G.E.V.'s to the Ogre's side just doesn't do it for me.)
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Andrew Walters
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"Under water" I read to mean that you're playing on the G.E.V. map. I don't have much experience playing the Smash The CP! scenario on that map. That would certainly give the Ogre a lot of advantages, since Ogres are less inhibited by terrain than anything else. For that scenario try the Ogre map. No water, no roads, just craters.

I sympathize with not having the time to experiment. The standard map should solve your problem.
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Stuart
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I don't want to sound ungrateful, as I appreciate the points made in the comments so far - the Ogre map is exactly where I'm trying to get with a Mark IV I've only tried the defenses with G.E.V. to see how it goes without any support for the Ogre.

I guess my point is, granting that the Mark V defense works against a Mark IV on the Ogre map(which I have tried previously), what about the other Ogre versions? I have simply seen no charts specifying defenses against anything other than a Mark III or a Mark V, which seems kind of odd to me - again, given all the time that has passed since the game was first released. I suppose it could be that such scenarios just aren't overly playable, so no one has ever bothered to work up defense strengths for them?
 
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Keith Carter
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I believe the Ogre Reinforcement Pack (1987) rated a Mark III at 17 armor units, a Fencer at 24 armor units and the Mark IV and Mark V at 25 armor units. This was with 9 more years experience with the system after GEV was published.

Ogre Miniatures (1992) rates the Mark III at 100 purchase points, the Fencer at 140 purchase points, and the Mark IV and Mark V at 150 purchase points. That is with 14 years experience after GEV was published. Note though that the Mark IV in Ogre Miniatures has 56 tread units not 60.

I would say to use the Mark V defense forces for the Mark IV. Long term experience with the system since GEV was published has them at the same value.
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Keith Carter
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Maybe this discussion will help:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/632401/ogre-point-cost
 
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Stuart
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Bounder wrote:
I believe the Ogre Reinforcement Pack (1987) rated a Mark III at 17 armor units, a Fencer at 24 armor units and the Mark IV and Mark V at 25 armor units. This was with 9 more years experience with the system after GEV was published.

Ogre Miniatures (1992) rates the Mark III at 100 purchase points, the Fencer at 140 purchase points, and the Mark IV and Mark V at 150 purchase points. That is with 14 years experience after GEV was published. Note though that the Mark IV in Ogre Miniatures has 56 tread units not 60.

I would say to use the Mark V defense forces for the Mark IV. Long term experience with the system since GEV was published has them at the same value.


Thanks very much, as that is probably as close to the answer as one can get. I have only recently acquired the Reinforcement Pack and now see the table being referred to. It doesn't quite fit the solo Ogre scenario, as it leaves out the aspect of Infantry strength and likely takes such things as terrain effects into account, etcetera, but it does clearly show that a Mark V and a Mark IV are equivalent to each other with respects to unit strength - I figured somebody must have worked something out at some point in time.

I'll have a little free time on my hands this week, so I'll give it a few go's and see what happens.
 
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Stuart
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Found a nice little scenario in the Battlefields expansion - S-3 Same Song, Second Verse. It takes the traditional Ogre set-up and plays it out on one of the new GEV-type maps, only with two CP's as targets for the Ogre. Getting the first CP is relatively simple, but it quickly becomes much harder to get to the second one. The Ogre can win(marginally) by getting the first CP and escaping, though, so it depends upon how much bravado your particular Ogre has whether or not you try for the complete victory. I've tried it a few times with a Mark IV, so I'll see how a Mark V stands up next as a comparison.
 
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