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Subject: OGRE - Tal's No CRT Variant rss

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Talorien
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Hi fellow Ogre fans,

I was inspired and intrigued by Christopher Brandon's alternative rules replacing the CRT in combat.

Readers naturally wondered if the proposed combat system altered game balance by changing combat results too much.

I started crunching a few numbers and before I knew it, one thing led to another and I dreamt up a whole variant combat system, based on Christopher's original ideas

Link to filepage containing the full rules and hit analysis here.

(File currently not updated for version 0.12 - the most current version of the rules is below)

I've copied the main variant rules (activation and combat below) so that you can browse them before opening the file

I'm still playtesting the rules and value your feedback.

I'm looking for a volunteer/fellow Ogre fan talented in graphic design to help lay out the rules in PDF format.

Thanks -- do let me know if the rules work (or not), if you try them out!

Tal

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OGRE®: Tal's No CRT Variant

By Talorien on Boardgamegeek.com

-----------------------------------------------------

Playtest Version 0.12

Updated 12 April 2012

This is my attempt to provide the option to play this much-loved classic without the CRT and to use sequenced activation in place of the "I Go-You Go" system.

I've included examples and clarifications, but the new rules should be simple and intuitive.

While the variant combat system attempts to return results as close as possible to the original CRT, there are inevitably some differences.

I've appended a full hit probability analysis so that players can see the relative changes to hit results (in the file version). A general analysis of the changes and individual analysis of the matchups between different units is included.

No unit values have been changed. The variant is compatible with all hex-based versions of Ogre/GEV, including the upcoming Designer's Edition. It can be easily adapted for use with Ogre Miniatures.

A set of 'activated' tokens is required for play (e.g. glass beads of one colour). If using miniatures a set of 'disabled' tokens is also needed (e.g. glass beads of a second colour).

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Variant Rules

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Activation Sequence

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New turn sequence:

Initiative phase, Activation phases, Recovery phase.

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Initiative phase:

Roll 2d6 for initiative each turn. Reroll ties. Winner chooses who gets first activation phase.

----------------------------------------------------

Activation phases:

The active player perform a Major (12-point) or two Minor (6-point) Activations per phase.

Major Activation

Activate one of the following large units:

Ogre, Superhvy Tank, Howitzer, M Howitzer - (all cost 12 points to activate)

Minor Activation

Activate any of the following smaller units together, up to a total of 6 points:

Hvy Tank, Msl Tank, GEV, GEV-PC, LAD, 3Inf - costs 6 points to activate
2Inf, Hvy Inf - costs 4 points
LGEV, L Tank - costs 3 points
1Inf - costs 2 points
Hovertruck - costs 1 point

(These are the same as the unit purchase costs, except for Ogres. You may NOT use a Major activation to activate the smaller units)

E.g. A player chooses a major (12-point) activation and activates a single Superheavy.

E.g. A player chooses two minor (6-point) activations. For the first activation he moves and attacks with a single Missile Tank.

For the second activation he moves two LGEVs and fires them both in a combined attack.

Perform each activation separately. Select a number of units equal to the activation limit (12 or 6 points).

Move those units and then attack with them (units which activated together may combine their attack dice into a single roll).

If the first activation was a Minor (6-point) Activation, perform a second minor activation.

Units activated during the first Minor Activation may not combine fire with units activated during the second Minor Activation.


Activated units move, and then make attack at the end of their movement. An activated unit may choose to not move and/or not attack.

Place an 'activated' token next to the unit. You may use the activation track provided below, if desired (to help keep count of activations -- in the file version).

Disabled units may not be activated.

If a player has Activation Points left over during an Activation, but is unable to use them, the unused points may be forfeited.

(E.g. A player has 3 Activation Points left over in a Minor Activation, but has no unactivated units costing 3 points or less. The 3 points are forfeited.)

Players alternate Activation Phases until no valid activations remain (i.e. No undisabled, unactivated units are left).

----------------------------------------------------

GEV activation:

When activated, a GEV or Light GEV moves up to 4 movement points, may then attack, and then moves up to 3 movement points.

----------------------------------------------------

Infantry activation:

Infantry may freely split into smaller units when activated, at either the beginning or end of their movement (e.g. A 3-Inf can separate to become three 1-Infs).

Infantry which activate together may combine to at any point during their movement, if they are in the same hex (e.g. Three 1-Infs move into the same hex and combine into a 3-Inf).

Infantry may mount a Light Tank, Heavy Tank, GEV-PC, Truck or Hovertruck in the same hex for free, at the end of their movement.

Infantry may dismount a vehicle for free, at the beginning of their movement.

Unactivated infantry already mounted on a vehicle may be carried along by that vehicle if it subsequently activates (the infantry may not fire at the end of the vehicle's movement, unless separately activated).

----------------------------------------------------

LAD activation:

A palletised LAD loaded onto a cargo vehicle is carried along for free (i.e. Requires no activation).

A palletised LAD loaded on a cargo vehicle may be activated to set up in its current hex. Place an unpalletised LAD unit in the hex with an 'activated' token. (This costs 6 activation points on the activation track. The LAD may not fire this turn. Setting up the LAD in this way does not use up the cargo vehicle's own activation).

A palletised LAD already on the ground (e.g. one that begins that way in a scenario) may be activated to set up in the same way.

An LAD may be activated and fired as normal the turn after it sets up.

----------------------------------------------------

Stacking limit:

12 points of friendly units plus another 12 points of friendly infantry may share a hex.

Attacks are resolved at full strength against everything in a hex!

----------------------------------------------------

Recovery phase (End of turn):

Disabled units each roll 1d6 for recovery:

1-3: Unit remains disabled

4-6: Unit recovers. Flip unit counter to undisabled side/remove the 'disabled' token.

Remove all activation tokens.

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Combat Sequence

-----------------------------------------------------

1. Attack declaration:

The active unit declares which weapon it is firing and which unit it is targeting (target unit must be in weapon range).

Any number of AP weapons on the same unit may declare an attack together. (E.g. An Ogre decides to declare an attack with 2 dice from its AP weapons at a hex with an enemy infantry unit.)

All other Ogre weapons attack separately.

Superheavy main guns may declare attacks together (6 dice) or separately (3 dice each).

Infantry units may split their attack dice into separate attacks.

(E.g. A 3-Inf unit decides to declare an attack of 2 dice, saving its 3rd attack die for a subsequent attack.)

Use the special Ogre Treads procedure for attacks against Ogre Treads (see below).

----------------------------------------------------

2. Attack roll:

Attacking unit rolls a number of dice equal to Attack Strength. Each die result of 4+ is a hit.

If an attack roll using multiple dice results in all hits, all with the same number on the dice, it is a critical. Add 1 hit to the total.


(E.g. A GEV attacks, rolling 4, 4. A crit is scored for a total of 3 hits.)

(E.g. Light GEVs can never score crits when attacking alone, since they only roll 1 attack die.)

(E.g. A Missile Tank attacks, rolling 3, 3, 3. It misses completely and does not crit).

(E.g. A Heavy Tank attacks, rolling 5, 5, 5, 6. It scores 4 normal hits but does not crit.)

----------------------------------------------------

3. Defense roll:

Defending unit rolls a number of dice equal to Defense Strength. Each result of 5+ is a block.

Infantry units may not split into smaller units for defense (i.e. GEV rule 6.081 is no longer used).

(E.g. A 3-Inf is fired upon. It may not roll defense separately as three 1-Infs.)

----------------------------------------------------

4. Combat result:

Deduct the number of blocks from the number of hits to get the final result.

If the final result is 0 hits or less, it is an 'NE' result. No effect on the defending unit.

If the final result is 1 hit, it is a 'D' result. Follow the usual rules for D results.


(E.g. The final result against an Ogre Main Battery is 1 hit, which is a D. The Ogre is undamaged.)

(E.g. The final result against an already disabled vehicle is 1 hit, which is a D. It takes a second D and is destroyed.)

If the final result is 2 or more hits, it is an 'X' result. Follow the usual rules for X results.

(E.g. The final result against an Ogre Secondary Battery is 3 hits, which is an X. One Secondary Battery is destroyed.)

-------------------------------------------------------------

Ogre Treads Attack Procedure

For attacks against Ogre treads, simply roll total attack dice. Each 5+ result scores a hit.

-------------------------------------------------------------

5. Spillover fire: multiple defenders in target hex

Repeat steps 2-4 against each other unit in the same hex as the target, but halve the dice used in the attack roll (round up).

(This replaces the spillover fire rules in GEV rules 6.08.)

-------------------------------------------------------------

6. Mounted infantry

If the target has mounted infantry on it, use the same attack roll vs. the infantry. Infantry roll their own defense against the attack roll.

Do not halve the attack dice for spillover fire; the two units are one target.

(e.g. A Howitzer fires on a Superheavy with a mounted 2-Infs. The attack roll is 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6 for two hits. The Superheavy rolls one block for an X result and is disabled. The 2-Inf rolls no blocks for a X result and is destroyed.)

(This replaces the mounted infantry rules in GEV rules 5.11)

-------------------------------------------------------------

Overrun Combat

Follow the rules in GEV 6.13 and 6.14 as normal, replacing the combat resolution with the method above.

Infantry split into squads of 1-Inf during overrun combat (GEV 6.133)and fire at 2 Attack Strength (GEV 6.131).

Infantry mounted on a tank or GEV-PC which is in overrun may dismount and participate, including unactivated attacker's infantry (Ogre Miniatures Rules Update 1.0, p. 9, replacing original p. 26).

All defending units declare and resolve their attacks one at a time in the first fire round, before attacking units (GEV 6.133).

Final results of 1 hit on infantry or vehicles during overrun combat count as 'X' results (GEV 6.142).

Note that Overrun combat takes place during movement (GEV 6.13). The activated unit may continue its move after overrunning, and fire at the end of its move.

-----------------------------------------------------

Analysis of Impact of Variant Rules

-----------------------------------------------------

(This analysis is based on the hit probabilities presented in the file version of the rules)


New recovery phase

This streamlines the game by removing the bookkeeping element of remembering which units recover this turn and which recover next turn.

There is now an extra incentive to fire on disabled units to destroy them, since they may recover at the end of the turn.

Units disabled toward the end of the activation phase (i.e. When there are few enemy activations left) have a chance of recovering in the endphase, and so suffering no ill effect.

This last factor partly offsets the fact that smaller units now have a chance of disabling high defense units.

(E.g. A single GEV, with 2 Attack Strength, now has a 15% chance of disabling a Superheavy with 5 Defense Strength. Previously it was unable to harm the Superheavy unaided.)

----------------------------------------------------

Overruns and stacking limit

It is now impossible for the attacker to have many attacking pieces in overrun, since units activate one at a time.

The exception is infantry: unactivated mounted infantry can be carried into overrun combat, or 6 points' worth of infantry can activated and move into a hex for combined overrun.

This has the effect of increasing the value of infantry, to my mind a good thing.

The new stacking limits and everything-in-a-hex-takes-full-fire rules partially offset this disadvantage to the attacker, since the defender will rarely want to stack multiple units unless desperate.

----------------------------------------------------

Expensive v cheap units

The 'big' units have generally become stronger overall, and the 'swarm' units less powerful in attack but more able to disable, with the Defense Strength 1 units more nimble in defense.

This seems thematically pleasing overall and reduces the imbalanced 'Fuzzy Wuzzy' Light GEV/GEV swarm tactic (Section 0.32 of the 2001 Ogre Scenario Book 1 introduced an artificial 25% cap on any one unit type to prevent this tactic.)

----------------------------------------------------

Low attack strength units (1-2 Attack Strength)

In general, Light GEVs and GEVs have become weaker in the attack against Ogres. This is probably a good thing, as the 'Fuzzy Wuzzy' swarm tactic meant that those could overwhelm stronger opponents.

The exception is that they are as effective (Light GEVs) or more effective (GEVs) vs. Ogre treads. This means that they are still a viable choice, and somewhat compensates for their reduced ability v Ogre weapons.

The smaller units (up to 2 Attack Strength) have also gained the chance of disabling high defense targets, as a compensation for a reduced chance of scoring Xs.

-----------------------------------------------------

High attack strength units (4-6 Attack Strength)

These have become more lethal against all targets except Defense Strength 1 units. This is probably good, as these high value units can be disabled with one shot.

----------------------------------------------------

High defense strength units (4+ Defense Strength)

These have become somewhat weaker against the 6 Attack Strength units. This is compensated by the fact that they are stronger against weaker X results, particularly 1-2AS attacks.

These are now more vulnerable to disabling attacks from smaller units, but this is compensated by the fact that there is a 50% chance of recovery at the end of the same turn.

----------------------------------------------------

Infantry

1-Inf is now much tougher and can disable heavy vehicles. However, it cannot score Xs.

Infantry have lost the ability to ride Superheavies and to combine fire with the vehicle they are riding.

Infantry have gained the ability to move an extra space when dismounting a vehicle.

The rules loophole that infantry are always dismounted when fired upon (due to the free mount/dismount of GEV rule 5.11) has been closed.

-----------------------------------------------------
Ogre is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy. The material presented here is my original creation, intended for use with the Ogre system. This material is not official and is not endorsed by Steve Jackson Games.
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Scott Everts
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Re: Ogre 6E - Talorien's No CRT Variant
Wow, that's quite a bit of work you did. Sounds like a fun variant since some of my gaming friends are turned off by CRT's so might convince some to play this!
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Roberta Yang
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Re: Ogre 6E - Talorien's No CRT Variant
Very interesting rules - obviously a lot of thought put into this. Now, if only I could actually play this game with any regularity...
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Talorien
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Re: Ogre 6E - Talorien's No CRT Variant
ScottE wrote:
Sounds like a fun variant since some of my gaming friends are turned off by CRT's so might convince some to play this!


Thank you -- that was actually one of my own motivations to try to do a variant!
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Christopher Brandon
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Re: Ogre 6E - Talorien's No CRT Variant
Very well thought through, detailed and excellent rules version Daniel! Kudos sir!
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Dan
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Re: Ogre 6E - Talorien's No CRT Variant
It seems counterintuitive that the high attack strength units are less likely to get a critical hit.
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Talorien
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Re: Ogre 6E - Talorien's No CRT Variant
PhotonStorm wrote:
It seems counterintuitive that the high attack strength units are less likely to get a critical hit.


It's actually because the 2AS attacks needed a boost to reach figures a little closer to the CRT.

The 'sweet spot' is at 4 AS - which returns results very close to the CRT. 1 and 2 AS underperforms compared to CRT, and 6+ AS overperforms.

I tried other numbers (e.g. Hit on 5+, Block on 6) but they didn't work out so well.

So the crit rule works out, because it's a painless way of boosting 2 and 3 AS without affecting 4+ AS (the chance of rolling all fours, fives or sixes on 4+ dice is almost negligible).

That's also the reason combined activations/attacks aren't allowed -- otherwise it'd be too easy to knock out Ogre weapons with, say two Heavy Tanks firing at 8 dice, which heavily overperforms the CRT.
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Re: Ogre 6E - Talorien's No CRT Variant
Fenway5 wrote:
Very well thought through, detailed and excellent rules version Daniel! Kudos sir!


Thanks Christopher -- it's great to hear from the guy who started it all

meeple
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Re: Ogre 6E - Talorien's No CRT Variant
Got to test the variant rules today playing the Breakthrough scenario from GEV (Ogre version with Mark IV + 6 GEVs on the attack), they seemed to work well.

Play went very fast since each phase activated 1-4 units at a time, and fire decisions were simple, no counting up of factors and ratios.

I tried a slightly different activation rule which I like better than the one posted:

- One major (12+ points) or two minor (6 points, 6 points) activations per activation phase

- Each minor activation may activate multiple units of up to 6 points simultaneously (e.g. 2 LGEVs, 3 1-INF, 2 LTs)

- Simultaneously activated units do all their movement one at a time, then do all their fire. They may combine fire (e.g. 2 LGEVs can roll 2 dice vs the same hex) or fire separately

- Infantry need not combine to activate simultaneously

I think I'll make those changes to the next version of the variant (0.12).
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Talorien
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Re: Ogre Designer's Edition - Talorien's No CRT Variant
Updated the OP to 0.12 version of the rules (see post directly above).

(Inspired by the Designer's Edition Kickstarter launch!)
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Mike Malley
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One addition i recommend is that vehicles with a Defense of 0 be allowed to roll a die, but only earning a block on a 6. This is based on something i read on the SJG forums by Toltrin, where he made a good case for fractional Defense values.
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Keith Plymale
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Can't format for .pdf but I did do a Word document I can send out.
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