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Subject: My second Eclipse houserule or "How to improve Turn Order" rss

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Maybe You have read my first variant houserule (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/683662/my-first-eclipse-hous...).

After some plays we have settled down we dislike Turn Order "as written".


There were some good ideas for tweaking it:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/741180/turn-order-variant


Let me propose something simpler, which gained acceptance amongst our group after some plays, and was implemented into Standard House Rules:


Second passing player decide on direction of players in next round (clockwise or counterclockwise), by flipping (or not) The Rotation Cycler on the beginning of next round.

The order of players is executed in the direction of this marker,
starting with first passing player.




The Rotation Cycler has clockwise arrow on one side and on the other counterclockwise arrows.



The idea is based on PsiComa Shattered Ascension TI3 add-on.
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Petri Savola
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Umpapa wrote:
Maybe You have read my first variant houserule (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/683662/my-first-eclipse-hous...).

After some plays we have settled down we dislike Turn Order "as written".


There were some good ideas for tweaking it:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/741180/turn-order-variant


Let me propose something simpler, which gained acceptance amongst our group after some plays:


Second passing player decide on direction of players in next round (clockwise or counterclockwise), by flipping (or not) The Rotation Cycler on the beginning of next round.

The order of players is executed in the direction of this marker,
starting with first passing player.




The Rotation Cycler. has clockwise arrow on one side and on the other counterclockwise arrows.



The idea is based on PsiComa Shattered Ascension TI3 add-on.

Interesting idea, could work very well and fix the "unfairness" when the same player always passes first, and probably simple enough to not cause any overhead in game length. I appreciate your effort on coming up with nice variants for the game. I'm going to try this when I play next and if it seems to work, we will probably end up using it often/always.
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Thank You.
It was playtested 4 times so far, with Aliens also, without any visible problems (other than sometimes few players felt it was occasionaly more beneficial to be second passing than first one passing player!)..
 
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Rion Hanson
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Any reason I shouldn't use this for my first play of the game with 5 new players tonight? All are well versed gamers but none (including myself) have played the game yet.
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nitroburn1 wrote:
Any reason I shouldn't use this for my first play of the game with 5 new players tonight? All are well versed gamers but none (including myself) have played the game yet.

I would strongly recommend my first houserule, especially for first game - it is no brainer, help immensely to lower bad luck. In the first game You cannot calculate odds of combat,

Regarding Your question - I would left second houserule for second game, as it can be better understand after using RAW Turn Order.
 
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Marco Chiappa
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nitroburn1 wrote:
Any reason I shouldn't use this for my first play of the game with 5 new players tonight? All are well versed gamers but none (including myself) have played the game yet.



but for the FIRST play is not enough to try the game as it is ?...
i dont see the point to change something without ever trying it...


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Petri Savola
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Mad_albin wrote:
nitroburn1 wrote:
Any reason I shouldn't use this for my first play of the game with 5 new players tonight? All are well versed gamers but none (including myself) have played the game yet.



but for the FIRST play is not enough to try the game as it is ?...
i dont see the point to change something without ever trying it...

Game works fine as it is. I'd recommend playing without any house rules at first and if something starts to really bother you, then consider throwing in a house rule. The game can become even better with small tweaks, but it already works without any.
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Maciej Welc
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Umpapa wrote:
Second passing player decide on direction of players in next round

Nice and simple.
Why decision is up to the second one? Wouldn't it force tactical pass?

How about leaving the decision to be made either by the last passing one or anyone reacting?

EDIT: there are no reactions after the last pass. Silly me.
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Mad_albin wrote:
nitroburn1 wrote:
Any reason I shouldn't use this for my first play of the game with 5 new players tonight? All are well versed gamers but none (including myself) have played the game yet.



but for the FIRST play is not enough to try the game as it is ?...
i dont see the point to change something without ever trying it...


Probably.

But probably also one or more players, playing first time, will make miscalculations about fighting Ancients. They will lose their most important first battles with Ancients, losing whole game in 45' minute, and losing any interest in playing Eclipse any more. First game is very important for overall acceptance of such game. Hate-or-love attitude.

My first houserule is kind of airbag for unexperienced players - initial bad luck do not explode them into face.

Regarding second houserule - yes, I concur. Probably after few games You will recognize whether You like RAW Turn Order or dislike it - thus needing some houserule, f.ex. my second one.

Quote:
Why decision is up to the second one?

It is the reward for efficient managing of empire (or handicap for being second the poorest) - a bit smaller one than official reward for being first one to pass.

Quote:
Wouldn't it force tactical pass?

Yes, but rules-as-written already force people to make tactical pass (to be the first one to choose Techs, claim system and be defender etc). So ot is along the spirit of rules-as-written.

Without such houserule, the guy to the right of the poorest player (who pass usually first) is usually screwed (without his fault) and the guy to left of poorest player is usually advantaged (without his effort).
 
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Maciej Welc
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Umpapa wrote:
Quote:
Why decision is up to the second one?

It is the reward for efficient managing of empire (or handicap for being second the poorest) - a bit smaller one than official reward for being first one to pass.

I played my 3rd game yesterday. This time 5p, again w/ original rules as we had newcomers. I mentioned your variant and ask players to pay attention who pass second/last.

As observed 2nd pass usually happened short after the 1st one. However since the 4rd round there were 2 players "pulling the rope" and not wanting to pass before the other one. As 1st player changed twice usually these players were 2nd and 6th.
Not hard to imagine that the 6th one would likely compete for the direction decision.

IMHO from the midgame 2nd pass is not a result of good decision but effect of not being developed enough to be able to perform further actions.
That's why I would leave the decision to one who passes last.



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Quote:
IMHO from the midgame 2nd pass is not a result of good decision but effect of not being developed enough to be able to perform further actions.
That's why I would leave the decision to one who passes last.


Thanks for Your observations!

But also 1st pass is usually the effect of not being developed enough to be able to perform further actions. And designers decided that they want to reward (handicap) the least developed player.

So I follow the teleological approach of statutory interpretation (polish: wykładnia celowościowa) trying to deduce to whom designers would give privilege of deciding on rotation direction.

What do You think: they would reward (handicap) A) the second least developed player (or second most efficient player), either B) the most developed (least efficient) player?

Thus I disagree on last passing player. Not to say that would create some unplanned chicken game.

However nobody's perfect and I can be wrong - try to play by Your version and please post here what You experienced.
 
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Maciej Welc
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Umpapa wrote:
But also 1st pass is usually the effect of not being developed enough to be able to perform further actions. And designers decided that they want to reward (handicap) the least developed player.

So I follow the teleological approach of statutory interpretation (polish: wykładnia celowościowa) trying to deduce to whom designers would give privilege of deciding on rotation direction.

TBH I would leave the least developed players with decision when to pass and be the 1st player. On the other hand the most developed ones would compete for direction decision.

I'm the Mare Nostrum fan. There are roles (ex. Director of Commerce, Military Leader, Political Leader, High Priest) assigned to players that are most developed in particular aspect (BTW being assigned 3 of them is an optional way to victory). Player Order for particular game phase (Trade, Build, Military) is dictated by the proper leader (and has significant influence on who will win) . It is good idea that I'd like to follow.

I do count that we'll share our experiences. You have tweaked the Turn Order applying KISS principle. That's great and I do admire it.
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Maciej Welc
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At last I've played my first game with improved TO (last to pass decided the next turn direction). IMHO works well as expected (IMO no matter who decides it would be better than original rule).

In turn 7 I passed early to have some spare money to pay for additional actions in turn 8 to decide the last turn direction. However I did not manage to be the last one to pass.

One possible issue we noticed with the alternative of decision being made by second to pass is that the closer you are to the 1st player then the faster you'll finish your actions. So you'll be ready to pass sooner than others and probably you won't change the direction for the next turn.
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Please forgive me for threadomancy, but I just would like to notify those who do not have Eclipse: Rise Of the Ancients nor do not read ROtA manual (are they such people?) that this variant was playtested and legalized in ROtA expansion.

Authors (which are really cool guys) were so kind that they thanked me in instruction, which is also very kind of them.

Just wanna to thank Authors for whole Eclipse, ROtA and especially for including my variant: now I do not have to argue before every game for accepting it - I just point it in THE instruction. Nice.
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Wim van Gruisen
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Congratulations!
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Christopher Todesco
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Read it again, carefully...
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We've been playing with Turn order = Pass order since pretty much I got the game, and it's not a problem. Eliminates the person-to-the-right-of-the-first-person-to-pass problem and being top in the turn order is only a real big advantage if you REALLY want first crack at the techs.
 
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