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Subject: The Vanishing - The #1 OGRE image disappears without explanation rss

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Simon Hunt
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It was an image of the Kwanchai re-design. I understand that the re-design was unwelcome at SJGames and why, but it _did_ happen and it was only a _picture_ of the front and back cover.

I'd like an explanation of who removed it and why. If it was the image creator, then fine, that's their prerogative, but if so I'd at least like an assurance that this was the case. Otherwise, I think it merits a more detailed public discussion.

Just to warn all those OGRE fan BGGers with OGRE avatars that it is likely that you will be required to remove your avatars and by the same arguments your microbadges. I refer you to the following SJGames forum post from 2006:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=22007

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Scott Everts
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I hope the pics of my build of Kwanchai's redesign don't get pulled. Seems they are scrubbing all they can of it. I get the impression they really, really hate that redesign. Sad.

EDIT- I see what you mean. The print & play edition listed under editions of the game is now missing its rep image. Considering all the money they are making off the Kickstarter project I don't know what they are upset about. Certainly didn't hurt their project. Probably gave it more exposure.
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Cole Wehrle
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Wow.
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Aaron Bohm
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The avatar rule is absolutely mind blowing, even Games Workshop allows you to keep WH40k/SH avatars...

In case anyone from SJG legal is looking at this, my avatar is from Blue Gender, not Ogre
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Desi Mims
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This is highly unfortunate. It seems to me that, from the beginning, SJG's response to this issue has only done them harm.
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Chuck Meeks
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Well.... seeing as those posts are from 2006 and SJG hasn't asked any BGG people to get rid of their avatars yet (that I know of) I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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Rob Rob
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D351 wrote:
This is highly unfortunate. It seems to me that, from the beginning, SJG's response to this issue has only done them harm.

It would have taken nearly zero effort for them to have come out of this thing gracefully and with good will from all. Instead they have worked very hard at alienating nearly everyone.
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Will (JR) Todd
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If they want me to, I'll change my avatar...but not until they tell me to.

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K.Y. Wong
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Hmm, seems to me like this issue is gonna taint the greatest boardgame kickstarter success story.

Imagine if $200k of funding disappeared without explanation. devil
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Will Cooper
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Very lame.

Even lamer, the other day I went to construct a copy of Kwanchai's redesign I'd had sitting around in my files for some time. I wanted to finally test out Ogre before I decided to back the new edition on Kickstarter. But it wasn't there. cry

Now since the files have been removed I'll never get a chance to enjoy Kwanchai's amazing work in person. cry
 
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David Rock

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You know, it does belong to them and they have the right to protect their property. The Kwanchai stuff wasn't just a full reproduction of the images, it contained a full copy of the rules, too. That effectively was making Ogre available for free without their permission. How would you feel if someone was giving away your stuff for free without asking?

I think we all have to remember that part of the reason 6E can happen at all is because they have worked to maintain their right to ownership. Like it or not, they own it, and have the right to decide how/when/where it's made available.

I have other stuff from battlefields, etc (counters, maps, scenarios) that I was hoping to post images of, because a lot of it's missing from the entries on BGG. I asked Phil if it was ok, and he said "no, please don't," so I'm not. He wasn't threatening, rude or anything else. He was also appreciative that I respected them enough to ask first. I think that's what it comes down to: It's their stuff, and we should respect their wishes regarding their property.

If they ask me to change my avatar, I will. Somehow I doubt they will, though.
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Scott Everts
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It wasn't why they did it, it was how they did it. You can get the full story in the long thread about it.

Anyone can make a copy of Ogre, there's counter images all over the place. All they had to do was ask Kwanchai to pull it or remove the rules. But they didn't. They went straight to BGG admins and also sent letters to his web hosting company.

I had one company ask me to remove something I did a few years ago and they were very polite and sent me a private email request. No threatening letters or legal documents. I, of course, removed the offending file and it was all taken care of. It just requires someone to be polite. Sure, sometimes you'll get the brush off, then you can take it to the next level. But that's not what happened.

Now I respect that SJG owns Ogre and I understand they want it protected, but for some reason on this occasion they made an example of someone. Even though its easy enough to search around for counter images, map images, and the like.

People now days seem to go overboard and get the lawyers involved when a simple email or letter will do.

I am backing the Ogre reprint, I said I'd do it even though I was very disapointed in how SJG handled the situation. Obivously it didn't affect their sales of this new edition in the slightest. And if they handled it better it might of even helped promote it more. Always treat your fans with respect, even when they do something you don't like.
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David Rock

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Without knowing the precise details on both sides, I'm in no position to discuss whether how it went down was heavy-handed or not, so I'm going to leave it as-is.

The fact that other images are rampant is not an excuse for future bad behavior (or to infer that it's ok), it only shows that there are a number of images out there that probably shouldn't be. How those get handled in the future is nobody's business but theirs. I just hope it's handled more politely than it apparently was in that specific case.

I am simply reacting to the self-entitled "why can't I have the Kwanchi files" sentiment in this thread. Regardless of how they were removed, the fact remains that people have no right to complain that they can't have it. It's perfectly fine, however, to raise a stink about the methods used if you feel so inclined. Like I alluded to earlier, I wasn't here when it went down, so I can't specifically comment on that part of it.
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granitepenguin wrote:
You know, it does belong to them and they have the right to protect their property. The Kwanchai stuff wasn't just a full reproduction of the images, it contained a full copy of the rules, too. That effectively was making Ogre available for free without their permission. How would you feel if someone was giving away your stuff for free without asking?


Could also be some legal reasons why. I know the comics book author of Cerebrus had a parody of Marvel Comic's Wolverine on its cover several times, and were issued a cease and desist letter.

Turns out, had the character been published whatever many times in a certain period, it would have become public domain.

Whoops.
 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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The problem people generally have is not with the what was done, but the how.

The problem is thus that there is that many of us are rather old fashioned and expect a certain level of inter-personal etiquette which was not met.

Part of the reason that it was not met was that SJG are a business. Businesses are not people (no matter what some of the Yanks might say), and thus don't tend to act like that when dealing with business-related legalities, especially as certain legalities may effectively force them to.

As there is statistically a disproportionate number of those with autistic spectrum conditions in gamer circles, this over-broad application of social rules (ask politely, don't demand) is hardly unexpected.

Further, in part, most of the legal side was all written when only businesses could realistically produce/distribute infringing materials in any way, and thus the expectation is business vs business or business vs "pirates". It's not designed to cope with business vs fans.
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Scott Everts
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Very interesting comments Slev. I think you hit the nail on the head. SJG has been around for a very long time and still hasn't gotten the knack with how to deal with their "fans". Fans are a passionate bunch and love supporting their favorite games. When the fans produce infringing stuff (with no intention of harm), some companies go overboard with no thought that it was an innocent mistake. I'm sure we are all familiar with the GW debacle of a few years ago for another example.

The sad part is they damage the relationships with those fans that are their most ecstatic supporters.
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Alain Marti
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,,, unknown to you, Kickstarter stretch goals included funds to hire more lawyers for SJG.

Now where are all the people that wanted to see GW burn at the stake, where are you now, where new evil has spawned (better said, old evil has been resurrected)
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Gunther Schmidl
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murks666 wrote:

Now where are all the people that wanted to see GW burn at the stake, where are you now, where new evil has spawned (better said, old evil has been resurrected)


Busy kickstarting Ogre. Even worse, IMHO, is that BGG is. I don't know if my donations are being used for this, but I really don't want them to be.
 
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The Real Stabliser
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Some guidelines to fans here at the geek might be helpful, but SJG (the business) is unlikely to give any guidelines other than 'ask us for permission first'

My observation of things that have been removed, it seems that direct scanned stuff where the verticals and horizontals are correct is most likely to get removed, a countersheet sitting on a table and photographed from an angle is less likely to get pulled.

Hmmm, I see one of the images on the G.E.V. page for an OGRE/G.E.V. edition seems missing - presumably the green box edition cover image.
 
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Kwanchai Moriya
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I deleted the image at the request of a direct, polite message from a person at Steve Jackson Games. They are working to further remove any images which use the word "ogre" in any way related to a boardgame. I was asked to remove the "Ogre redesign" microbadge as well, but I told them I did not create it, and cannot remove it.

Whether or not it's right or wrong, I don't really care anymore. The point is that Steve Jackson Games has legal right to do what they are doing, and I'm not gonna holler over it. All it ever was, was a fun weekend illustration project for me. As an illustrator, my profession relies heavily on usage rights and IP laws, as well. So I'm happy to comply when asked, and I'm hoping to buy a copy of the new edition as well.
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Daniel Drickman
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gschmidl wrote:
murks666 wrote:

Now where are all the people that wanted to see GW burn at the stake, where are you now, where new evil has spawned (better said, old evil has been resurrected)


Busy kickstarting Ogre. Even worse, IMHO, is that BGG is. I don't know if my donations are being used for this, but I really don't want them to be.


Eh, BGG is supporting the Ogre kickstarter because they see an easy way to profit and help the site. They are paying $1.50 for each counter sheet. If they sell each for $7.50 and lets say shipping costs $2.50, you are looking at a $3.50 profit, thats over $10,000 for the site per sheet, so if they do two sheets then you are looking at $20,000.
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Daniel Drickman
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kwanchai wrote:
I deleted the image at the request of a direct, polite message from a person at Steve Jackson Games. They are working to further remove any images which use the word "ogre" in any way related to a boardgame. I was asked to remove the "Ogre redesign" microbadge as well, but I told them I did not create it, and cannot remove it.

Whether or not it's right or wrong, I don't really care anymore. The point is that Steve Jackson Games has legal right to do what they are doing, and I'm not gonna holler over it. All it ever was, was a fun weekend illustration project for me. As an illustrator, my profession relies heavily on usage rights and IP laws, as well. So I'm happy to comply when asked, and I'm hoping to buy a copy of the new edition as well.


You seem like a complete class act, well done!

And FWIW, I don't have an issue with how SJG appears to be handling this. Sure, not how I would, but I also probably wouldn't be the best businessman either.
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Scott Everts
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kwanchai wrote:
I deleted the image at the request of a direct, polite message from a person at Steve Jackson Games. They are working to further remove any images which use the word "ogre" in any way related to a boardgame. I was asked to remove the "Ogre redesign" microbadge as well, but I told them I did not create it, and cannot remove it.

Whether or not it's right or wrong, I don't really care anymore. The point is that Steve Jackson Games has legal right to do what they are doing, and I'm not gonna holler over it. All it ever was, was a fun weekend illustration project for me. As an illustrator, my profession relies heavily on usage rights and IP laws, as well. So I'm happy to comply when asked, and I'm hoping to buy a copy of the new edition as well.

I'm glad to hear that they actually contacted you and asked you personally.

As for the microbadge I made that one. Once a badge goes up it can't be removed by the creator. There are currently 20 owners of the badge so not only will a BGG admin have to remove it but will also have to refund all those people their Geekgold they used to buy it.

I'm sad to see they want to remove that badge. I'm proud to own a copy of that version. And yes, I did order a copy of the designer's edition. I own all edtions except for the first printing. I bought the second printing new in 1978. soblue
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Russ Williams
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Wanting to remove microbadges seems pretty strange and fan-alienating to me.

"People are enthusiastically evangelizing our product (with a 16x16 image too small to be useful for making your own home-made version of the game with)! We must make them stop!"

Do they want badges with images of the Ogre like mb and mb removed also (as per that linked old SJG forum thread about not being allowed to use Ogre images in avatars), or only microbadges which use the word "Ogre" like mb?

Should we be putting "TM" after "Ogre" in every forum post where we mention Ogre?

---

PS: For what it's worth, long long ago I drew a silly webcomic with an Ogre:
http://www.kofightclub.com/d/20001008.html
and the SJG Daily Illuminator blog later linked to it on October 19, 2000 as a fun thing.
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Simon Lundström
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That the version disappeared is a simple, and quite understandable, policy of BGG: Only having "official" versions as version (or the Catan versions would be flooded with "my home made 3D board"!)

That the image was pulled is inexcusable. Not allowing OWN RETHEMES of the frigging game is plain ridiculous, regardless of from where the order came.

Edit: Saw now that it was Kwanchai who removed the image. I think that's ridiculous, still. Removing the version, I would only agree to. But removing a picture of a home-made re-theme? Come on. If that's what the law forces companies to do, there is something seriously wrong with the law.

I know quite an amount of people who would gladlier play Ogre 6e with Kwanchai's graphics. Seems pretty silly to frown at those people.
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