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Subject: The Vanishing - The #1 OGRE image disappears without explanation rss

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Hey Kwanchai! I really loved your edition! I still got it stored to this day, never came to actually printing it, very smooth design nontheless
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kwanchai wrote:
They are working to further remove any images which use the word "ogre" in any way related to a boardgame.


Seriously? Wow. Just wow.
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h3rne wrote:
It was an image of the Kwanchai re-design. I understand that the re-design was unwelcome at SJGames and why, but it _did_ happen and it was only a _picture_ of the front and back cover.

I'd like an explanation of who removed it and why. If it was the image creator, then fine, that's their prerogative, but if so I'd at least like an assurance that this was the case. Otherwise, I think it merits a more detailed public discussion.

Just to warn all those OGRE fan BGGers with OGRE avatars that it is likely that you will be required to remove your avatars and by the same arguments your microbadges. I refer you to the following SJGames forum post from 2006:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=22007



Not to be a nay-sayer, but if SJG owns the copyright to those images, I imagine they're within their rights to do this.
 
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ctewks wrote:
Not to be a nay-sayer, but if SJG owns the copyright to those images, I imagine they're within their rights to do this.


Who has said otherwise?

It's not about if it's their right. It's if it's right.

Those two aren't the same thing.
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John "Omega" Williams
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As said elsewhere. This is nothing compared to some of SJGs actions against fan sites some years ago.
 
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kwanchai wrote:
They are working to further remove any images which use the word "ogre" in any way related to a boardgame.

Not literally, I hope/suppose. E.g. I see these games in the BGG database:

HeroQuest: Against the Ogre Horde
Ogre Castle
Dungeon Twister: Ogre
Ogre in the Court
Ogres & Elves
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Zimeon wrote:
ctewks wrote:
Not to be a nay-sayer, but if SJG owns the copyright to those images, I imagine they're within their rights to do this.


Who has said otherwise?

It's not about if it's their right. It's if it's right.

Those two aren't the same thing.


They own the Trademark. They are legally required to defend or loose it.

I's thus not even about whether it is right or not, but about whether the legislation requiring this is fit for purpose.
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John "Omega" Williams
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Slevs right in this case. SJG doesnt have a choice but to go after the fan version or else they risk loosing their IP.
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I think people really don't realize the importance of defending your IP. Companies like Fantasy Flight and Euro Game companies don't succeed because of one or two strong IP and so they can allow much more. For that matter, most of what they release is licensed from others. Companies like GW with their warhammer and SJD rely heavily on branding and their IP's.
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I'm sure a different non-infringing image could be put in its place - say a closeup of one of the little houses on map without using THE offending word, or a zoomed out image of the whole game sitting on a table, just so long as offending words were unreadable.

Of course with the history this version has, maybe a silhouette of a mech with a big red circle with diagonal line through it imposed over the top.

Just thoughts that escaped from my head.
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Kwanchai's Ogre is the reason I'm backing Ogre in the first place. Quite the excellent way to get a curious player hooked.
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ScottE wrote:
kwanchai wrote:
I was asked to remove the "Ogre redesign" microbadge as well, but I told them I did not create it, and cannot remove it.

As for the microbadge I made that one.


I understand that SJG can request the removal of a microbadge/avatar/whatever that has an image/picture of a mostrously large vehicle associated with SJG's game Ogre.

I don't see how they could make you take down a microbadge that has an image of a robot's head, said robot being linked to a redesign of SJG's game Ogre, but the image itself is not SJG's property.

Are they saying that you cannot use your own artwork if it is linked to their game?

I think that may be a stretch.
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CaptainCosmic wrote:
But here on earth, SJG is simply doing what businesses everywhere have to do: protecting their property. "Right" and "wrong" don't enter into it; it's just business.

If "businesses everywhere have to do" this, why do I see so many microbadges with art and logos and titles of games of other companies when I open
http://boardgamegeek.com/microbadge/browse/purchase
and look at the "Board Game Related" section? Sincerely, why do all those companies not do what they "have to do" and ask for those microbadges to be removed? Do you suppose they're all unaware of those microbadges using art and logos and titles of their games? Or what?
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CaptainCosmic wrote:
Zimeon wrote:
It's not about if it's their right. It's if it's right.

Wrong. It's not about that at all.

Says you. For me, it's all about whether it's right. I don't care about their legal rights.
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kwanchai wrote:
I deleted the image at the request of a direct, polite message from a person at Steve Jackson Games.


Many thanks for chiming in Kwanchai, that's exactly the information I was after when I posted this and my mind is now set at rest. I felt (and still feel) it was important that the question was asked. I felt the removal of a legitimate and well loved (most loved!) image without the author's knowledge or permission was a step too far, had that been the case. I'm glad that this wasn't what happened and that the issue was solved civilly. Also, now that you have clarified that it was specifically the association of the word OGRE that was problematic rather than the image's general subject, I understand the request and am much less disturbed by the event.

As a keen member of the PnP guild I'm quite used to game files getting pulled when they find a publisher and have no problem with that. Usually it gets a "congratulations!" and a few "Awww darn"s from the people who missed the window. FWIW I also think your re-theme was awesome!

And as to those who read the Avatar thread I pointed to, you will have noted that despite the snarky comments about NASA and Toronto, I changed my avatar from an OGRE to the current HWZ paper model I use here (sometimes).
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kwanchai wrote:
I deleted the image at the request of a direct, polite message from a person at Steve Jackson Games. They are working to further remove any images which use the word "ogre" in any way related to a boardgame. I was asked to remove the "Ogre redesign" microbadge as well, but I told them I did not create it, and cannot remove it.

Whether or not it's right or wrong, I don't really care anymore. The point is that Steve Jackson Games has legal right to do what they are doing, and I'm not gonna holler over it. All it ever was, was a fun weekend illustration project for me. As an illustrator, my profession relies heavily on usage rights and IP laws, as well. So I'm happy to comply when asked, and I'm hoping to buy a copy of the new edition as well.

Any hope of the artwork being reposted sans "a monster in fairy tales and popular legend, usually represented as a hideous giant who feeds on human flesh"?
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DeePee wrote:
kwanchai wrote:
They are working to further remove any images which use the word "ogre" in any way related to a boardgame.


Seriously? Wow. Just wow.

Sounds like we can expect a mass deletion from the files and images folders soon. Though they'd be smart to wait until after the Kickstarter project is complete.
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There are 17 boardgames about Shrek in the database.

I wonder how SJG feels about those? kiss
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ScottE wrote:
DeePee wrote:
kwanchai wrote:
They are working to further remove any images which use the word "ogre" in any way related to a boardgame.


Seriously? Wow. Just wow.

Sounds like we can expect a mass deletion from the files and images folders soon. Though they'd be smart to wait until after the Kickstarter project is complete.


I like Scott's Kwanchai micro-badge (not to mention all the other original art from the Main Event). Hopefully a simple re-labeling of it, such as "Kwanchai art," and the removing of any said offending language, will satisfy any Overly-Grabby Reactionary Elements. whistle

-Jim

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Good idea James.

I have officially sent an email to Aldie to request changing the name of the badge from-

Ogre fan (Kwanchai redesign)
to
Kwanchai redesign fan

Hopefully he will agree to do this. I'll post another thread if this is accepted.

Also, note, I will personally refund anyone that owns the previously named badge if they no longer want it.
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Let's hope that Kwanchai comes out with a counter set one day for a generic game entitled, "Tanks from the Future."

Or better yet, why don't we look at this as an invitation to make a game that's better than Ogre.

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Troll. Been there, designed that... As a joke mind you.

craniac wrote:
Let's hope that Kwanchai comes out with a counter set one day for a generic game entitled, "Tanks from the Future."

Or better yet, why don't we look at this as an invitation to make a game that's better than Ogre.

 
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Everyone here keeps talking about Copyrights, which are relevant to the discussion but not the real issue here. OGRE (and I believe the standard Mk. V Silouhette) are Trademarks of SJG, and the rules for trademarks are not the same for copyrights. If someone violates copyright and you don't do anything about it, your copyright remains intact and you can still do something about it later. If you let people get away with violating your trademark, you lose it.

The way the law works, if you don't vigorously defend your trademark, you can (and eventually will) lose the right to it, and it becomes part of the public domain. This isn't just a theoretical outcome either, it's happened many times before. So regardless of how small the usage, if SJG doesn't stop certain things, it WILL come back to bite them.

Given that SJG has had a fairly lenient online policy for a LONG time, and allows quite a bit of usage of their IP by anyone who follows it, I'm not sure how you expect them to react when people violate it. And for anyone who says they don't care about their legal rights, I really don't think that you have a leg to stand on claiming you only care about what's right. That shows a lack of respect for the game creator, and if you don't respect them why should they respect you?

My $0.02 - I'm saving the rest of my money to buy games.
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offsides wrote:
OGRE (and I believe the standard Mk. V Silouhette) are Trademarks of SJG, and the rules for trademarks are not the same for copyrights.


Agreed. I have no issue with SJG asserting their rights due to the fact that their rules were copied verbatim.

However, I find it hard to believe that the law would prohibit a microbadge with artwork that SJG has absolutely no claim to from being available for purchase on an entry under the game that they do have claim to (although the Mark V silhouette you mentioned is another story).

Of course BGG is free to do what they want in response to a "request" but the point still stands.
 
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kjamma4 wrote:
However, I find it hard to believe that the law would prohibit a microbadge with artwork that SJG has absolutely no claim to from being available for purchase on an entry under the game that they do have claim to (although the Mark V silhouette you mentioned is another story).


As part of case law, you could look at the case in the US where a coke bottle with the label removed, gripped in hand was still not allowed in another commercial as it could lead people to believe that the coke people endorsed the product.

Yeah, crazy.

Anything that uses the "Ogre" trademark to describe a product or service in the same field as Ogre is a breach of that Trademark.

As I've said before, the problem is the law.
 
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