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Subject: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread - 189 Trades Found rss

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Joe Huber

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NOTE: Even if you don't read most of the header - and, were I your legal adviser, I would suggest that you do - please read this. In this math trade, the order in which you list your wants will make a difference. TradeMaximizer will be run in such a way as to _not_ guarantee the maximum number of trades, but instead to increase the number of trades where people recieve something higher on their want lists.

The only thing you will need to do differently is to assign values in the OLWLG to match your preferences. In step 4, make sure you assign the highest value to the item you want the most, and so on down to the item you want the least. The standard advice applies - do not list anything you wouldn't be happy to trade for.


Trade Geeklist: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - 189 Trades Found

Request list: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Request List

Use of the On-Line Want List Generator (OLWLG) is required for this event (please remember to tip JeffyJeff some GG for his support).

Please do not delete items or sweeteners once you have listed them. You can always submit a blank want list for an entry if you've traded it away before the deadline.

Rules for this trade - please take a few minutes to read them:

d10-1 Each participant may list FIVE gift certificates and FIVE geekgold listings. For Gift Certificates, a minimum of $20 is required. For geekgold, a minimum of 500 is required. Otherwise, only boardgames, role playing games, and videogames are allowed. Other items are not allowed, even as sweeteners. Note - the limit is to the number of listings allowed; you may list multiple gift certificates or geekgold pots in a single listing using the COPIES option.

d10-2 You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition (components and box), language and edition of your item in the description. This includes sweeteners. Any games not in shrink should be fully inventoried, and any missing components - including inserts - listed in the entry.

d10-3 If the game and/or expansion you are listing is a "Print & Play" make that clear in the description (and I recommend you give specifics what it was printed on, mounted on, etc).

d10-4 Do not include a link to any game unless you are including it with the entry as this looks, in the OLWLG, as if you are.

d10-5 You MUST cover shipping within your country, and the first $10 of shipping to any other country you are willing to ship to. Exception: for those in the contiguous United States, you are not required to ship to Alaska or Hawaii, but if you do ship there you are required to cover shipping. Any ambiguity in your shipping limitations will be interpreted as generosity on your part. This means that if you don't include a shipping policy, then it is assumed that you will ship anywhere in the world for free!

Clarification - you are only required to ship to your country, and if in the US you are not required to ship to Alaska or Hawaii. You must cover shipping within your country. You may ship to any other countries you wish, but must cover the first $10 of shipping to those countries as a minimum.

d10-6 Sweeteners are to be listed using the Insert Geek Link functionality. If you don't use this format your sweeteners won't show up in the OLWLG properly.

d10-7 I reserve the right to remove any want lists submitted by someone reported to me as a bad trader.

d10-8 If you feel the need to use them, please keep disclaimers short and to the point so they don't make things hard to read. If you need to use a longer disclaimer, please include a link to it in each of your entries instead of copying the whole thing into each entry - thanks.

d10-9 Finally - you are expected to periodically check during the item submission period, and preferably during the want list submission period, to see if anyone has commented on your entries. People often ask questions of items - most commonly because you have forgotten to state a version, language or shipping policy - and you should check in to address such questions in a timely manner should they arise, so that everyone then has the correct information available.

This is a very easy thing to do. Step 3 in the OLWLG will tell you at the top when you have items that people have commented on, and give a link to that comment. You will only need to go back to the trade GeekList to make adjustments or answer questions if there were any.

d10-0 Geekgold arbitrage and gift certificate arbitrage are not allowed.

Other useful information

OLWLG Help: http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/OLWLG

Software Used: TradeMaximizer 1.4 with duplicate protection. SCALED-PRIORITIES, NONTRADE-COST=2521

Key dates (all times are EASTERN TIME)

Geeklist closed for new entries: Sunday, July 22nd, at 7PM.

Want list submission period: Sunday, July 22nd at 7PM through Wednesday, July 25th at 7PM.

Results posted shortly thereafter.

Please note that it's best to work on your want list and submit them early - you can always make changes and resubmit later. This will prevent you from being left out if you forget the deadline.

Also: Creating want lists is not the same as submitting them. To submit them you will need to click on the "Submit My Wants" button. If you're not sure how to find this, consult the documentation referenced above or ask in the discussion thread.

When you submit your want lists, you will receive a confirming GeekMail. If you don't get one, your want lists haven't been submitted. Your want lists in the GeekMail may be truncated - this is fine.

Want list submission

Submissions may be made only via the OLWLG.

Note: only errors by the moderator will invalidate the results. In the case that there is a problem after the results are posted, at most it will only invalidate the affected trade chain(s) and not the entire results set. In addition if the problem can be resolved by the most directly affected party or parties, then that is perfectly acceptable.
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Joe Huber

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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Results have been posted: http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/trades-summary.cgi?listid=...
 
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Joe Huber

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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Reversed.
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Steffan O'Sullivan
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Joe says results are official:

http://www.rpggeek.com/article/9685807#9685807

(I like to see this on the front page, myself.)
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Joe Huber

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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Sever...








...ed
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Kevin B. Smith
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Thanks for running this. The time was ripe.

Perhaps I missed it, but what SEED do you plan to use?
 
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Hey Joe, I'm confused about the shipping rule. Can I restrict shipping to only the US and cover the full shipping there or do I have to open it up to the rest of the world (in which case it's free shipping US and first $10 to anywhere else)?
 
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Joe Huber

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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
sirgalin wrote:
Hey Joe, I'm confused about the shipping rule. Can I restrict shipping to only the US and cover the full shipping there or do I have to open it up to the rest of the world (in which case it's free shipping US and first $10 to anywhere else)?
Sorry for the confusion.

You can restrict shipping as you wish, but must cover shipping within your country (save for the AK/HI exception). You may have a separate shipping policy for anywhere else you are willing to ship, so long as you cover the first $10.
 
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Joe Huber

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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
peakhope wrote:
Perhaps I missed it, but what SEED do you plan to use?
Not particularly relevant, but it will be the default - it will not be explicitly set.

(It's not particularly relevant because priorities will be used, unlike most math trades, which means that only a single run will be performed.)
 
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
huber wrote:
peakhope wrote:
Perhaps I missed it, but what SEED do you plan to use?
Not particularly relevant, but it will be the default - it will not be explicitly set.

(It's not particularly relevant because priorities will be used, unlike most math trades, which means that only a single run will be performed.)
Interesting. Wait. What?

Only one iteration? My understanding is that that won't maximize anything except the total number of trades. If there are 100 possible combinations of trades that produce the same number of total trades, one would be picked arbitrarily (and possibly randomly, depending on how Trademax is written to handle no seed).

I just wanted to make sure that the results could be reproduced by anyone else at any time, after they are published. But now I'm confused, and need more details. I'll do some searching to try to find some information about this Trademax mode you plan to use that I'm not familiar with, but if you have any quick links to threads or other pages, I would love the headstart.
 
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
huber wrote:
The only thing you will need to do differently is to assign values in the OLWLG to match your preferences. In step 4, make sure you assign the highest value to the item you want the most, and so on down to the item you want the least.
I have never used the value option before so I am not sure how it works. What type of scale is used, is "1" considered the lowest value and if so, what is the highest value that it goes to? Does it matter if you use the same value more than once or should each number only be used once?

Thanks for doing this math trade, I was just thinking that there hadn't been one for awhile
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Is anyone else having problems adding video games to this trade? For some reason, video game options aren't showing up in the "Add Item window on my machine.
 
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
peakhope wrote:
huber wrote:
peakhope wrote:
Perhaps I missed it, but what SEED do you plan to use?
Not particularly relevant, but it will be the default - it will not be explicitly set.

(It's not particularly relevant because priorities will be used, unlike most math trades, which means that only a single run will be performed.)
Interesting. Wait. What?

Only one iteration? My understanding is that that won't maximize anything except the total number of trades. If there are 100 possible combinations of trades that produce the same number of total trades, one would be picked arbitrarily (and possibly randomly, depending on how Trademax is written to handle no seed).

I just wanted to make sure that the results could be reproduced by anyone else at any time, after they are published. But now I'm confused, and need more details. I'll do some searching to try to find some information about this Trademax mode you plan to use that I'm not familiar with, but if you have any quick links to threads or other pages, I would love the headstart.
This article should help explain SCALED-PRIORITIES: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/1710704#1710704

But actually that doesn't explain everything about this math trade. In that article, this feature is described as (1st) maximizing trades; (2nd) among maximum trade solutions, maximizing priorities would; (3rd) among ties in both measures, favoring smaller trade loops (which should help reduce damage from trade problems). So priorities are a tiebreaker. Then smaller trade loops are a tiebreaker. Then it's arbitrary, if equal solutions remain.

But here the idea seems to be to ignore maximum trades, skipping to maximizing priorities. I don't even see this as an option in TradeMaximizer. I'm confused. But I'm no expert. (Edit: see Dan Blum's reply below for explanation. I am less confused. Still no expert.)

huber wrote:
TradeMaximizer will be run in such a way as to _not_ guarantee the maximum number of trades, but instead to increase the number of trades where people recieve something higher on their want lists.
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
peakhope wrote:
huber wrote:
peakhope wrote:
Perhaps I missed it, but what SEED do you plan to use?
Not particularly relevant, but it will be the default - it will not be explicitly set.

(It's not particularly relevant because priorities will be used, unlike most math trades, which means that only a single run will be performed.)
Interesting. Wait. What?

Only one iteration? My understanding is that that won't maximize anything except the total number of trades.


Looking at the code, when there is 1 iteration and no seed the find graph function { graph.findCycles() } is called once off of a graph built from input order. Iterations have to be greater than 1 for the randomizer to be used { graph.shuffle() in the code }. So the seed doesn't matter as the randomizer isn't used during the run. So the result is reproducible as long as the same input file is used.

{Disclaimer: I am not a java programmer, but I've annotated a version of the code on my machine with my C++ knowledge. My annotations make it so that I can't point to line numbers or the official filenames as I've restructured things to make them more clear to me, but I haven't yet made any changes to functionality.}

I do not know if not running a second, third, fifth, etc iterations makes a difference; but a seed would be needed if multiples were used, as the default of "-1" would have it replaced with system time and that would make it irreproducible.
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Also, documentation advises including BIG-STEP=0 when using SCALED-PRIORITIES. But perhaps that doesn't matter with the output from the OLWLG?
 
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
jadseah4 wrote:
huber wrote:
The only thing you will need to do differently is to assign values in the OLWLG to match your preferences. In step 4, make sure you assign the highest value to the item you want the most, and so on down to the item you want the least.
I have never used the value option before so I am not sure how it works. What type of scale is used, is "1" considered the lowest value and if so, what is the highest value that it goes to? Does it matter if you use the same value more than once or should each number only be used once?

Thanks for doing this math trade, I was just thinking that there hadn't been one for awhile
I'm having similar questions using dupe protection...put the same number in for dummy and actuals, leave actuals blank, or what?

As for the scale, bigger number = want more.
 
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
Quote:
But actually that doesn't explain everything about this math trade. In that article, this feature is described as (1st) maximizing trades; (2nd) among maximum trade solutions, maximizing priorities would; (3rd) among ties in both measures, favoring smaller trade loops (which should help reduce damage from trade problems). So priorities are a tiebreaker. Then smaller trade loops are a tiebreaker. Then it's arbitrary, if equal solutions remain.

But here the idea seems to be to ignore maximum trades, skipping to maximizing priorities. I don't even see this as an option in TradeMaximizer. I'm confused. But I'm no expert.
It's not an explicit option. It comes from "NONTRADE-COST=2521".

Normally, the nontrade cost is so much higher than the cost associated with any possible trade that it is impossible to lower the total cost of the solution by reducing the number of trades. However, 2521 is the bottom end of the scaled priorities, so the costs of items near the ends of long want lists will approach it.

So, if we have a solution with two trades which each have a cost of 2000, and we remove them and replace them with one trade with a cost of 100, we have reduced the number of trades but also reduced the cost (by 1379). Since TradeMaximizer finds the minimum cost, this is a better solution and will be used instead of the first one.
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
nate_lockhart wrote:
jadseah4 wrote:
huber wrote:
The only thing you will need to do differently is to assign values in the OLWLG to match your preferences. In step 4, make sure you assign the highest value to the item you want the most, and so on down to the item you want the least.
I have never used the value option before so I am not sure how it works. What type of scale is used, is "1" considered the lowest value and if so, what is the highest value that it goes to? Does it matter if you use the same value more than once or should each number only be used once?

Thanks for doing this math trade, I was just thinking that there hadn't been one for awhile
I'm having similar questions using dupe protection...put the same number in for dummy and actuals, leave actuals blank, or what?

As for the scale, bigger number = want more.
The Wiki page explains a bit about how duplicate protection works. The short answer is that it's the priority of the dummy item that matters. That's the item that is actually getting sent out into the general trade.

For the original query, when SCALED-PRIORITIES is used it doesn't matter what range or size of numbers you use. What will matter is how the wants are ordered. The highest value in a want list will receive the top priority value, second-highest value will be second-highest priority, etc. If you just had three items and used 1000, 943, 724 it would come out the same as if you had used 3, 2, 1. The software will adjust every item's want lists after submission so that each uses the same rubric (specifically: 1+(rank-1)*2520/number of wants).
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
The following answers are conditioned upon "Buck's law of Internet information extraction":

jadseah4 wrote:
huber wrote:
The only thing you will need to do differently is to assign values in the OLWLG to match your preferences. In step 4, make sure you assign the highest value to the item you want the most, and so on down to the item you want the least.
I have never used the value option before so I am not sure how it works. What type of scale is used, is "1" considered the lowest value and if so, what is the highest value that it goes to?


The numbers you use at put on the OLWLG are from 1 least wanted to a high of most wanted. I do not know what the upper limit is for the the OLWLG or TradeMax(TM), but internally TM uses int & long so values less than 1 billion are safe.

The code reverses the values so internally a 1 is best and 2561 is the worst for wants. But you don't need to worry about this internal scale. And I think that your want values are tossed before they are handed to TM as value is determined by position on the line; but I'm not entirely certain about that.

Quote:
Does it matter if you use the same value more than once or should each number only be used once?
Given what I believe I've now seen, your want numbers are used only to sort the wants for any given item by the OLWLG when it creates your "official wants", so it has to break a tie somehow; if you aren't certain that two items are worth exactly the same to you, and both are candidates for a single one of your items - make them different to be certain they appear in the correct order for you.

The docs I've seen on SCALED_PRIORITIES appears to pre-date duplicate protection, so I don't know how they interact. In fact I hope that by watching this trade I'll learn a lot.

So my recommendation, would be to start with round numbers for your want values (10, 20, 30, 50, 100) and then bump them up or down by 1 or 2 to break ties.

... now how many more things were said while I typed this up?
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
An looking through the rules again... this is the first MT I've seen that allows for GC/GG arbitration. (Not that is says that you can, but it's the first not to say that you can't.)
 
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
yaverot wrote:
An looking through the rules again... this is the first MT I've seen that allows for GC/GG arbitration. (Not that is says that you can, but it's the first not to say that you can't.)
Oh, good, we're overdue for that argument. whistle
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
yaverot wrote:
Looking at the code, when there is 1 iteration and no seed the find graph function { graph.findCycles() } is called once off of a graph built from input order.
Thanks to everyone who has helped clear up my confusion about how Trademax will handle this trade. It is certainly interesting. Last night, after posting, I realized that the weighting can in fact produce a solution in one iteration. But *something* still has to break ties, and apparently that would be input order. Which is reasonable, makes sense, and is fine.

I guess my remaining question about reproducibility is whether the OLWLG always outputs the want list file in the same order. If it does, then I assume that is the order that will be used. If not (which seems unlikely), we would have a problem.

It's kind of too bad that the values you enter aren't actually used, and instead arbitrary values are assigned based on the position of each want within the want list for each item. So the system decides that if you list 2 wants, it seems that the first is 2521x more desirable than the second, but if you have 4 wants, the first is about 600x more desirable than the second (and 2521x more desirable than the 4th).

EDIT: Pretty sure those numbers aren't correct, but at worst they are twice what they should be, so the point remains that items earlier on your lists are WAY more likely to trade than ones laster on your lists.
 
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
tumorous wrote:
yaverot wrote:
An looking through the rules again... this is the first MT I've seen that allows for GC/GG arbitration. (Not that is says that you can, but it's the first not to say that you can't.)
Oh, good, we're overdue for that argument. whistle
My fault - just missed it. NOT ALLOWED. I will add this to the rules ASAP.

I will get answers to the other questions later; thanks to those who have been answering ahead of me. But a couple things quickly:

In brief - the only reason multiple iterations are generally run is that most trades use the MAXIMIZE-USERS option. The only reason explicit seeds are noted is that it's more interesting than using 0 as a seed (or whatever TradeMaximizer defaults to; my guess would be 0). However, in this instance priorities are the tiebreaker.

And, to state explicitly how priorities are used: the higher the number you assign, the earlier they appear on the list generated by the OLWLG. The earlier they appear on the list generated by the OLWLG, the higher the priority they are assumed to have for you. And, because a number of lower-priority trades will be eliminated in this math trade, in order to give folks trades of more interest, the earlier items are on your list, the more likely you are to get them, assuming such a solution exists. You can still get any item on your want list.

Again, to emphasize - higher numbers in the OLWLG are considered to be higher priorities for you.
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
tumorous wrote:
The short answer is that it's the priority of the dummy item that matters.
I hope this is correct, as I always use "-1" for the actual items assigned to a duplicate protection dummy. To get them to the bottom of the list, out of the way.
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Re: Chosen Priorities of the Third Kind Math Trade - Discussion Thread
I think I didn't get it.
Guy, I am pretty sure I am going to submit a blank list.
 
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