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Subject: Playing multiple reaction cards rss

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Jason Monroe
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So I was reading the rules for Dark Ages earlier and saw the bit about being able to play multiple reaction cards to a single attack card. Maybe my memory is fading but is this new for Dark Ages? Since when could you play multiple reaction cards against the same card?
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Mark Judd
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gf1024 wrote:
Since forever. The first practical use were Secret Chamber + Moat. SC to draw 2 cards, one of those is a Moat -> use it. Multiple reaction cards can be revealed to a single event, hell, you can reveal the same one multiple times to the same even but that never has any additional benefit.

Don't forget to reveal Secret Chamber again after revealing Moat to put the Moat back on top of your deck!
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Jason Monroe
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Beaveman wrote:
gf1024 wrote:
Since forever. The first practical use were Secret Chamber + Moat. SC to draw 2 cards, one of those is a Moat -> use it. Multiple reaction cards can be revealed to a single event, hell, you can reveal the same one multiple times to the same even but that never has any additional benefit.

Don't forget to reveal Secret Chamber again after revealing Moat to put the Moat back on top of your deck!


If you reveal the secret chamber again do you get the +2 cards again?

And I don't understand the the bit about ' reveal the same one multiple times to the same even but that never has any additional benefit'

So you can't reveal the same card multiple times and gain anything extra? Ie: Revealing the secret chamber twice in a row will still only get you 2 cards?
 
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Mark Judd
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belial1134 wrote:
Beaveman wrote:
gf1024 wrote:
Since forever. The first practical use were Secret Chamber + Moat. SC to draw 2 cards, one of those is a Moat -> use it. Multiple reaction cards can be revealed to a single event, hell, you can reveal the same one multiple times to the same even but that never has any additional benefit.

Don't forget to reveal Secret Chamber again after revealing Moat to put the Moat back on top of your deck!


If you reveal the secret chamber again do you get the +2 cards again?

And I don't understand the the bit about ' reveal the same one multiple times to the same even but that never has any additional benefit'

So you can't reveal the same card multiple times and gain anything extra? Ie: Revealing the secret chamber twice in a row will still only get you 2 cards?

When you reveal a Secret Chamber twice in a row, you end up drawing 2 cards, putting 2 cards back on top of your deck, re-drawing the 2 cards that you just put on your deck, and placing 2 cards on top of your deck again. You must do every step of the card in order.

Other cards work the same way. With Traders (from Hinterlands), you can reveal a Traders when you gain a card to gain a Silver instead. Then you can reveal it another time, but you would just be gaining a Silver instead of the Silver you would have gained. No additional benefit.

About the Secret Chamber/Moat, you can reveal Secret Chamber which allows you to draw 2 cards and put 2 cards on top of your deck. After that is finished, you can reveal Moat which prevents the effects of the attack. Once Moat is revealed, you can reveal Secret Chamber a second time, draw the 2 cards that you put on top of your deck earlier, and put 2 cards on top of your deck (not necessarily the same 2 as earlier). If you wanted to, you could put just the Secret Chamber back on top of your deck, you could put the Moat back on top of your deck, or you could put both on top of your deck. Your opponent has no idea whether or not the Moat is still in your hand, but it doesn't matter. It was revealed once earlier, so the attack is prevented. It's a decent way to recycle those reactions in attack-heavy games.
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Simon Kamber
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Beaveman wrote:

When you reveal a Secret Chamber twice in a row, you end up drawing 2 cards, putting 2 cards back on top of your deck, re-drawing the 2 cards that you just put on your deck, and placing 2 cards on top of your deck again. You must do every step of the card in order.

Other cards work the same way. With Traders (from Hinterlands), you can reveal a Traders when you gain a card to gain a Silver instead. Then you can reveal it another time, but you would just be gaining a Silver instead of the Silver you would have gained. No additional benefit.


And Tunnel?
 
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Mark Judd
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Here's a full list of why revealing a card more than once usually has no additional benefit:

Moat (Base Set) - Once revealed, it prevents the attack. You can reveal it a second time for the same attack, but it was already prevented so it doesn't do anything else. If a second attack is played that turn, you do have to reveal Moat again if you want to prevent it.

Watchtower (Prosperity) - Once revealed, the gained card is either trashed or put on top of your deck. Nothing else will happen if it is revealed again. You can't put the same gained card in two different places at the same time, and it doesn't allow you to gain additional cards.

Horse Traders (Cornucopia) - Once revealed from your hand, Horse Traders is set aside. It is no longer in your hand, so you can't reveal it a second time.

Fool's Gold (Hinterlands) - First of all, you aren't revealing Fool's Gold as part of the reaction. You are just trashing it. And the gaining of Gold is conditional on trashing Fool's Gold. Once trashed, it can't be trashed a second time.

Tunnel (Hinterlands) - Hmmm. This one is a little tricky. If you can reveal a reaction more than once, I don't know why you can't reveal this more than once when discarded other than because it says so in the Hinterlands card descriptions of the rulebook. Does anyone have more insight on this?

Trader (Hinterlands) - Mentioned in previous post

Beggar (Dark Ages) - Gaining Silvers is conditional on discarding Beggar (not revealing it). Once discarded, it can't be discarded again.

Market Square (Dark Ages) - Similar to Beggar - Conditional on discarding (not revealing). Once discarded, it can't be discarded again.

Hovel (Dark Ages) - This is not revealed; it is trashed. You don't gain anything. You don't do anything else. You just trash it.

Secret Chamber (Intrigue) - This is the only one that could have additional benefits when revealed twice, but only if you reveal another reaction to the attack between each time you reveal Secret Chamber.

So here are the nifty Secret Chamber/additional reaction combos:

Secret Chamber/Moat/Secret Chamber - Explained in previous post.

Secret Chamber/Horse Traders/Secret Chamber - I'm not sure what the advantage of doing this would be other than to possibly draw a Horse Traders if you didn't initially have it in your hand and then put Secret Chamber back on top of your deck during the second time you reveal it.

Secret Chamber/Beggar/Secret Chamber - You can reveal Secret Chamber to draw 2 cards and put 2 cards on top of your deck. Then, discard Beggar to gain 2 Silvers, putting one on top of your deck. Then, reveal Secret Chamber to draw the Silver and one other card, putting 2 cards on top of your deck.


Edit: I forgot about Young Witch (from Cornucopia) and it's Bane card. This one is a little trickier because it is not part of the normal reactions to an attack. So other reactions to the attack must be revealed before the Bane can be revealed. If Secret Chamber is the Bane, it can be revealed initially to draw 2 cards and put 2 cards on the deck. If it is still in your hand, you can then reveal it for it's Bane effects to prevent gaining a Curse from Young Witch. You are not allowed to reveal Secret Chamber after the Bane effects to draw 2 more cards and put 2 back on top because it is too late for normal reactions to the attack.
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Kevin Costello
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Beaveman wrote:

Tunnel (Hinterlands) - Hmmm. This one is a little tricky. If you can reveal a reaction more than once, I don't know why you can't reveal this more than once when discarded other than because it says so in the Hinterlands card descriptions of the rulebook. Does anyone have more insight on this?


I would guess it hinges on what exactly happens immediately after the card is done being revealed. For Moat, it definitely goes right back to your hand where it started. For Tunnel, I think it ends up in the discard pile, meaning that the window is closed after the first reveal. That's my take anyway. I guess its plausible that after being revealed, it goes back to a state of "being discarded" or something, but that seems funky to me.
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enfynet enfynet
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It seems like Tunnel has the "reveal" text on it in a case where you do not show your opponents the cards you are discarding. Other than that, it makes sense that you cannot discard it more than once. You have a single point in space-time to discard Tunnel. At that point (and only that point) you may reveal it. Before that point, you have not discarded Tunnel. After that point, the card has been discarded already so you can no longer reveal it.
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David Goldfarb
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For my part, I have to admit that it looks to me like the strict letter of the rules would allow you to gain the whole Gold stack the first time a Tunnel is discarded; but it makes no sense to play that way, and the only sensible thing is to gain one Gold once per Tunnel discarded. We can allow sense to trump the letter of the rules every once in a while.
 
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Simon Kamber
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enfynet wrote:
It seems like Tunnel has the "reveal" text on it in a case where you do not show your opponents the cards you are discarding. Other than that, it makes sense that you cannot discard it more than once. You have a single point in space-time to discard Tunnel. At that point (and only that point) you may reveal it. Before that point, you have not discarded Tunnel. After that point, the card has been discarded already so you can no longer reveal it.


But you also only have a single point in space-time to reveal both Secret Chamber and Moat. At the point where an opponent plays an attack card, but has not yet started resolving it (and only at that point) you may reveal your reaction. Yet, you are able to reveal secret chamber, draw moat, reveal moat, reveal secret chamber again and put moat back on the deck, all within this single point in space-time.


I think the rules for Tunnel are just not consistent.
 
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Donald X.
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To me Tunnel is consistent, it's Secret Chamber that's inconsistent.

Embassy says, "when you gain this, each other player gains a Silver." They don't empty the pile; they gain one Silver and they're done. It's the same with Tunnel; Tunnel just has a "you may" clause further limiting it. You gain a Gold if you want; you can't empty the pile.

Secret Chamber lets you reveal it multiple times. This is because the information about how many Secret Chambers are in your hand isn't public, and it seemed like people would want to reveal a Moat they drew off of Secret Chamber. These days I probably wouldn't do Secret Chamber, because it makes reactions confusing in a way they otherwise didn't need to be.
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Thomas Brendel
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We had a whole thread about Tunnel confusion back when Hinterlands was new, and it was sort of my fault, so I guess I should link to it.
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Mark Judd
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donaldx wrote:
To me Tunnel is consistent, it's Secret Chamber that's inconsistent.

Embassy says, "when you gain this, each other player gains a Silver." They don't empty the pile; they gain one Silver and they're done. It's the same with Tunnel; Tunnel just has a "you may" clause further limiting it. You gain a Gold if you want; you can't empty the pile.

Secret Chamber lets you reveal it multiple times. This is because the information about how many Secret Chambers are in your hand isn't public, and it seemed like people would want to reveal a Moat they drew off of Secret Chamber. These days I probably wouldn't do Secret Chamber, because it makes reactions confusing in a way they otherwise didn't need to be.

Donald X. - I agree that you should only be able to gain 1 Gold per Tunnel, and for the most part your explaining of the difference between Secret Chamber and Tunnel makes sense. But I have to play devil's advocate, and it seems like there might be cases where I could make the same argument of how many Tunnels you are discarding isn't public.

Let's say that I play Cartographer and discard 3 of the 4 cards. One of those cards is a Tunnel. Obviously, I can reveal that and gain a Gold. But there are 2 other cards that I'm discarding. What prevents me from mixing up those after I reveal Tunnel to reveal Tunnel 2 more times, claiming that all 3 cards are Tunnels and gaining 3 Gold? Does discarding technically take place one card at a time even though you can just place all the discarded cards in the discard simultaneously so your opponents only see the top card discarded, or is it an all at once thing? If it is the first, then Tunnel makes sense. But if it is the second, it seems like you could gain as many Golds from Tunnel as the total number of cards discarded.
 
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Jeff Bockelman
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Quote:
What prevents me from mixing up those after I reveal Tunnel to reveal Tunnel 2 more times, claiming that all 3 cards are Tunnels and gaining 3 Gold?


1) Your conscience because you know it is cheating.

2) Other players who watch you reveal a tunnel and then mix up the cards again.
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Mark Judd
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joefunk wrote:
Quote:
What prevents me from mixing up those after I reveal Tunnel to reveal Tunnel 2 more times, claiming that all 3 cards are Tunnels and gaining 3 Gold?


1) Your conscience because you know it is cheating.

2) Other players who watch you reveal a tunnel and then mix up the cards again.

I'm not advocating cheating. But what I'm trying to say doesn't seem much different then revealing Secret Chamber twice.

Are you trying to imply that it is cheating to reveal Secret Chamber, reveal another reaction and then reveal Secret Chamber again because you only had one Secret Chamber and you shouldn't be able to reveal it twice? Because that is definitely allowed in the rules.

By card wording and Donald X.'s ruling on Secret Chamber, it would technically appear that this is also legal. But by the spirit of the game and the card intentions, I agree that it is not legal.
 
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Jeff Bockelman
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I didn't say anything about the Secret Chamber thing because I really don't care about it. It doesn't seem to me that revealing Secret Chamber more than once because the rules allow it (or seem to allow it) is the same as being dishonest about how many Tunnels you discarded.

The Secret Chamber scenario is taking advantage of the rules, somewhat sneakily. If you and your opponents agree that it is cheating, then it is cheating and anyone who does it is a cheater.

In your Tunnel scenario, you and your opponents have apparently agreed that you can only gain one Gold per Tunnel discarded. Then you ask about messing with your discards to make it look like you discarded more Tunnels than you actually did. That is obviously cheating.
 
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Donald X.
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Beaveman wrote:
What prevents me from mixing up those after I reveal Tunnel to reveal Tunnel 2 more times, claiming that all 3 cards are Tunnels and gaining 3 Gold?

If you mean, what makes this illegal rules-wise, it's that the Hinterlands rulebook says you can only reveal a Tunnel once per discard (whereas the Intrigue rulebook says you can reveal a Secret Chamber multiple times). If you mean, what stops you from doing this in practice, it's that you would not be fooling anyone.
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Jeremy Lennert
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I think the question was "is there something written on the cards themselves that would allow players to infer that Secret Chamber can be revealed multiple times per trigger while Tunnels cannot, or is that something you could only figure out by resorting to the rulebook?"
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Donald X.
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Antistone wrote:
I think the question was "is there something written on the cards themselves that would allow players to infer that Secret Chamber can be revealed multiple times per trigger while Tunnels cannot, or is that something you could only figure out by resorting to the rulebook?"

You mean, without resorting to the FAQ parts of the rulebooks? You have to have the rulebooks to know the rules to the game, and the expansions add rules. So it's silly to think you could know how Tunnel works without the rulebooks.

Again, the issue is Secret Chamber. People do not get confused by Tunnel. They reveal it and gain one Gold. It does what it says. By default "when x happens do y" happens once period in all games ever. For example in Monopoly, when you pass Go, do you take all of the money in the bank? No-one thinks they are somehow going to get more than $200.

Secret Chamber is the card where you have to know that the rules say you can reveal it multiple times and whether or not it was in your hand to start. I already said I shouldn't have made the card because it's confusing.
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Jeremy Lennert
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donaldx wrote:
You mean, without resorting to the FAQ parts of the rulebooks?

Yes, that is what I meant.
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Nick Knutsen
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To just state the actual rule: A Reaction card can be revealed as many times as you want from your hand. This follows from the rule that you immediately resolve a Reaction when you trigger (reveal) it and then you can trigger another one etc. You don't reveal them all first and then resolve them. So there's no way of knowing whether you're revealing another Reaction card or the same one.

Beaveman wrote:
Watchtower (Prosperity) - Once revealed, the gained card is either trashed or put on top of your deck. Nothing else will happen if it is revealed again. You can't put the same gained card in two different places at the same time, and it doesn't allow you to gain additional cards.

True. You can reveal the same Watchtower several times to the same attack though (think Mountebank), but doing it to the same event (for instance when you gain a Curse) would be pointless.

Beaveman wrote:
Tunnel (Hinterlands) - Hmmm. This one is a little tricky. If you can reveal a reaction more than once, I don't know why you can't reveal this more than once when discarded

It's not revealed from your hand.

Beaveman wrote:
Market Square (Dark Ages) - Similar to Beggar - Conditional on discarding (not revealing). Once discarded, it can't be discarded again.

I don't think this is strictly true. If you're allowed to reveal the same card from your hand several times, it follows that you're allowed to discard the same card from your hand several times. You just need to draw it back in the meantime. Market Square reacts to a card being trashed and in Dark Ages there are cards that let you draw when they're trashed (Cultist, Overgrown Estate). In that case you can discard Market Square and gain a Gold first, then draw the cards. If your deck is then reshuffled, you're stilling resolving things that triggers from the trashing, so if you drew the same Market Square you can discard it again, and gain another Gold.

I think this example is even clearer than Secret Chamber/Moat in demonstrating why the rule has to be as it is. It would actually be impossible to enforce a rule saying that you're not allowed to discard the same Market Square twice. Assuming you had several Market Squares in your deck, there's no way of knowing whether it was the same Market Square that was drawn!
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The Compulsive Completist
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I had a game this weekend where I was able to play Trader on a King's court attack three times.

Not really on topic but the three Silvers was a lot better than the three Curses I was supposed to get.

In summary, I was happy and wanted to post about it.
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Vid Dles
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PunchBall wrote:
Beaveman wrote:
Market Square (Dark Ages) - Similar to Beggar - Conditional on discarding (not revealing). Once discarded, it can't be discarded again.

I don't think this is strictly true. If you're allowed to reveal the same card from your hand several times, it follows that you're allowed to discard the same card from your hand several times. You just need to draw it back in the meantime.


Sorry to be rude, but it's bad enough when people don't use common sense when interpreting the rules. It's even worse when people don't use common sense when interpreting other people's interpretations of the rules.

Yes, it's possible to discard more than one card as a reaction to an event, and yes, it's possible that the same copy of a card can be used more than once due to reshuffling and then redrawing that copy.

However, when Beaveman said, "Once discarded, it can't be discarded again," he obviously did not mean that it is against the rules to use the same copy of a card during a second instance of discarding, provided the conditions which allow the reaction are recreated. He clearly meant that discarding the card happens only once during that specific instance of discarding, and therefore only reacts once during that instance.

I know, I know. He didn't say, "Once discarded, it can't be discarded again in that specific instance of discarding." But, here's the catch: He didn't have to. The context of his statement was the conditions in which a reaction card can be revealed multiple times. He was simply pointing out that the act of discarding the Market Square ends the conditions which are necessary to be able to reveal it. The fact that it's possible to create those conditions a second time is beside the point.

Same thing goes for everything else on this thread. It's not difficult. You can reveal a reaction as many times as you'd like, provided the conditions which allow you to reveal it are still present. If using a reaction (or anything else) ends the conditions in which it can be revealed, then you no longer have the option to reveal it. Then, you can move on to another reaction if you have one available given the new conditions. Repeat until no conditions are present to use any of your reactions and/or you no longer wish to reveal. That's it.

 
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Simon Kamber
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viddy wrote:

Same thing goes for everything else on this thread. It's not difficult. You can reveal a reaction as many times as you'd like, provided the conditions which allow you to reveal it are still present. If using a reaction (or anything else) ends the conditions in which it can be revealed, then you no longer have the option to reveal it. Then, you can move on to another reaction if you have one available given the new conditions. Repeat until no conditions are present to use any of your reactions and/or you no longer wish to reveal. That's it.


But that is NOT it. I agree with most of your post, but what you are writing here is simply not true. Tunnel does NOT conform to that expectation. Revealing tunnel does not end the condition for which it can be revealed.
 
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Vid Dles
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Dulkal wrote:
But that is NOT it. I agree with most of your post, but what you are writing here is simply not true. Tunnel does NOT conform to that expectation. Revealing tunnel does not end the condition for which it can be revealed.


Of course it does. Once it's discarded, it's already discarded, thus ending the condition. The Secret Chamber goes back into your hand, thus not ending the condition. I'm failing to see the ambivalence people are claiming it has.
 
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