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Subject: Loot rules question- as written, the rule doesn't make sense rss

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gameplayer guy
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We just played our first game yesterday. Simple rules except for one massively confusing one- the rules around combat and loot phases are just not clear. I'm hoping somecone understands the rule and can clarify it for me.

If you do not defeat the monster, step 3B often results in you dropping a treasure. Then step 4 states:

"If you encounter a monster in a room you draw a treasure card from the face down pile of cards corresponding to the level. You also collect any other treaseures that were dropped there by heroes."

A literal interpretation then is that the defeated hero can immediately pick up all of the treasure that he just dropped! This doesn't make any sense!

A further interpretation is that a seriously wounded hero drops half of his treasure, moves to the Great Hall, and then immediately picks up all of the treasure in the room he is no longer in! Again, the rule makes no sense.

We decided to house rule that:
1. Any player who encounters a monster in a room gets a treasure from the face-down stack, no matter the outcome of the battle unless he is killed (monster roll of 12).
2. In order to pick up a dropped treasure from a room or chamber, you must be standing in the room. If you are stunned, you can pick up all of the other treasure other than the treasure you just dropped.
3. If you are wounded or seriously wounded, you cannot pick up any dropped treasure from the room or chamber because you are no longer in the room or chamber.

I think these rules logically make sense, just confused why this is not clearly spelled out in the rulebook.

It would be nice if WOTC gave an official ruling for this. Any other thoughts?

Thanks!
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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You are reading it literally and wrong and the wording in the booklet isnt the best so its making the problem worse. And the wording of this version is pretty awfull! Step 4 takes place before the combat of step 3!

1: Draw encounter.
2: Draw and collect treasure and collect any dropped treasures.
3: Fight the monster.
4: Likely drop treasures if monster wasnt killed.


This is very different from past versions where you did not get ANY treasure until the monster is defeated. This includes dropped treasures.

At a guess its a typo. Otherwise it very much changes the gameplay.
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gameplayer guy
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Thanks, you are right, the rules make more sense when you switch steps 3 and 4, looting first and fighting after. Thematically, I guess you could explain it as the monster is disturbed by the hero poking around his lair and confronts him.

But it doesn't feel right. Conventionally in these games, you can't get access to the treasure until you defeat the monster, unless you sneak in without being noticed.

Now, giving the player a choice of sneaking in or confronting the monster would add a strategic element to the game.

If you sneak in, you would roll a die for success before revealing the monster (unless a monster is already revealed in the room). If you succeed, you grab a treasure then move one space out and the monster does not attack you. If you fail the roll, the monster gets a free attack on you before you confront him (and the monster would get a 2nd attack if you do not defeat it).

In all situations when the monster is confronted, you would only collect treasure if you defeat the monster.

 
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Rob Rob
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As John said, the steps are out of sequence from previous editions. They should be:

Quote:
1: Draw encounter.
2: Fight the monster.
3: Likely drop treasures if monster wasn't killed.
4: Draw and collect treasure and collect any dropped treasures.
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John "Omega" Williams
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1st 2nd and Classic run as follows.
Enter room.
Draw monster.
Draw treasure and place it under monster.
Fight.
Any treasure dropped is placed under the monster.
Whomever defeats the monster gets all the treasure it was guarding.

Classic Edition Thief was weak. BUT. Was stronger and used the red numbers if teamed with another player. Classic had co-op, player ambush rules and the ever helpful Paladin.
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John "Omega" Williams
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No. 4 is just listed out of order in the book.
so it goes in the current ed as I listed. Read the entry 4 in the rule book. You draw and take a treasure and the dropped loot before combat is initiated.

Robrob wrote:
As John said, the steps are out of sequence from previous editions. They should be:

Quote:
1: Draw encounter.
2: Fight the monster.
3: Likely drop treasures if monster wasn't killed.
4: Draw and collect treasure and collect any dropped treasures.
 
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gameplayer guy
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We played another game and discovered that the best strategy for the rouge and cleric is to grab some low level treasure, then head for the higher levels. Since you don't need to defeat the monster, you can get some pretty high point treasures and if you lose you can drop one of the low level treasures.

A couple of lucky rolls and the rogue and cleric can win pretty quickly. The wizard and fighter were at a big disadvantage. This may be an unintended consequence of the new rules compared to the original rules.

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John "Omega" Williams
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Except that you have to drop a random treasure.

You do not get a choice of what you drop. No wonder they were doing so well.

Though if you only have one low and one high when beaten then its 50-50 and not a bad risk. IF you arent killed.
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Abdul Rahman Ibrahim
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Would've made more sense if the word "encountered" was errata'd to "defeated". But it wouldn't be much sense for them to support this game, since it looks to be a one shot kinda thing.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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They have on the web site with some insights and new options. A FAQ or eratta would b nice though. It is possible that something got mixed up somewhere. But it is also possible that they intended this new Enter-Loot-Fight-Drop procedure.
 
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Merric Blackman
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There's just one rule missing from the book: Your turn ends if you are defeated by the monster. You don't get to loot.

Cheers,
Merric
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Unfortunately the rules dont support that idea. While section three says "before you can grab a treasure you must fight the monster", section 4 states you draw and collect upon entry. Which is the problem. 4 contradicts 3.
 
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Merric Blackman
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Omega2064 wrote:
Unfortunately the rules dont support that idea. While section three says "before you can grab a treasure you must fight the monster", section 4 states you draw and collect upon entry. Which is the problem. 4 contradicts 3.


Which rules are you looking at? This is the latest edition, I'm reading.

rules wrote:
Step 4. Loot
If you encountered the Monster in a room, you draw 1 Treasure card from the face-down pile of cards corresponding to the Level the Monster was on. You also collect any other Treasures that were dropped there by Heroes.

If you encountered the Monster in a chamber, you do not draw a random Treasure card, but you do collect any Treasures that were dropped there by Heroes.


And that's all of Step 4.



 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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almond55 wrote:
But it wouldn't be much sense for them to support this game, since it looks to be a one shot kinda thing.

You're talking about the version that's listed as "English 5th edition", right?
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John "Omega" Williams
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MerricB wrote:
Which rules are you looking at? This is the latest edition, I'm reading.

rules wrote:
Step 4. Loot
If you encountered the Monster in a room, you draw 1 Treasure card from the face-down pile of cards corresponding to the Level the Monster was on. You also collect any other Treasures that were dropped there by Heroes.

If you encountered the Monster in a chamber, you do not draw a random Treasure card, but you do collect any Treasures that were dropped there by Heroes.


And that's all of Step 4.


Note that it makes no mention of defeating the monster. Merely where you encountered the monster. Hence the wording problem. Its too easy to read that as taking place before combat starts.

All it needs is a "After the battle is won." statement to clarify when this is really playing.
 
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Timur Tabi
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Robrob wrote:
As John said, the steps are out of sequence from previous editions. They should be:

Quote:
1: Draw encounter.
2: Fight the monster.
3: Likely drop treasures if monster wasn't killed.
4: Draw and collect treasure and collect any dropped treasures.


This doesn't make any sense. What's the point of dropping a random treasure (if I lose the fight), if I'm just going to pick it up again?

It makes more sense if I collect the treasure before fighting the monster.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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tabicat wrote:
This doesn't make any sense. What's the point of dropping a random treasure (if I lose the fight), if I'm just going to pick it up again?

It makes more sense if I collect the treasure before fighting the monster.


Correct. Hence why the pattern, due to the dodgy wording, is really.

Enter > Draw encounter > Draw and collect treasure and any dropped > Fight > Drop Treasure if lost.

Easiest solution is to go back to the original system.

Enter > draw monster and treasure > fight > take treasure and any dropped if won.
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Simon Gingras
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Omega2064 wrote:
Easiest solution is to go back to the original system.

Enter > draw monster and treasure > fight > take treasure and any dropped if won.

This. It's just basic sense, really, isn't it?
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Aimon wrote:
Omega2064 wrote:
Easiest solution is to go back to the original system.

Enter > draw monster and treasure > fight > take treasure and any dropped if won.

This. It's just basic sense, really, isn't it?


agreed... regardless of how its worded (or MISworded) in the book, this is how it really should be played.
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Rayzor 442
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When I play, we don't draw the treasure card until the monster is defeated.
 
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Joshua Solomon
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I'm pretty sure the problem is that they simply left out a sentence at the beginning of Step 4 stating, "After defeating a monster..."

My evidence is under the Treasure Cards section of the rules:

"Whenever your Hero destroys a Monster in a room, you draw a Treasure card that matches the Monster's Level."

This would confirm that the steps aren't out of order, and also that they don't intend for you to draw a treasure card prior to killing a monster.
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Mike McGlumphy
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Joshua's post explains exactly how it should be played. It's just bad rule-smithing in the step 4 section. It should definitely say "After defeating a monster... Else skip this step".

If you were to draw a treasure card after every encounter, you could theoretically farm multiple treasures from a single monster. You would have to be lucky enough to lose your attack and skate by each counter attack, but you would pull a new treasure each turn.

Also, you are supposed to keep looted treasure values secret. Drawing before fighting would be a minor exploit of that rule if you lose and someone else picks up that treasure. You would have knowledge of its value without having ever owned it.
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John "Omega" Williams
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Well hopefully the new version apparently coming out will be a liiiiitle clearer worded.
 
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Omega2064 wrote:
Well hopefully the new version apparently coming out will be a liiiiitle clearer worded.


The newest version (2014 or 5th edition) just came out and the rules are indeed clearer. Here's what it says:

Dungeon! 2014 5th Edition Rules Book wrote:

Step 4. Loot for Treasure
If you defeated the Monster in a room, draw 1 Treasure card matching the Level of the room. Collect any other Treasures dropped there. If the Monster was in a chamber, you can't draw a Treasure card, but you can collect any dropped Treasure.
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