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Subject: Cliffs and high ground rss

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Simon Walden
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While map bashing our local area I had to invent some cliffs rules, so keeping it simple

No unit can go up a cliff, infantry can go down
If on high ground gain 1 extra range
Shooting onto high ground lose 1 range

Et, that's it....
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Jefferson Krogh
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San Leandro
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Wouldn't the rules from the Ogre map concerning the ridges work?
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Seth Owen
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Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
Wouldn't the rules from the Ogre map concerning the ridges work?


Ogres can pass through ridges. I presume he wants to reflect terrain too steep for the Ogres.
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Andrew Walters
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I strongly dislike the altitude/range idea. That works fine for Napoleonic artillery, but doesn't reflect the reality of the types of weapons in modeled in Ogre. You can't substantially see, aim, or reach better based on a vertical difference.

I played in one game where a similar altitude/range rule was used. It was a disaster. Units raced to high ground and then sat there, able to pound approaching units for more than the usual number of turns before being subject to return fire. They were invulnerable, unapproachable. A standoff ensued, end of game.
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McKinley Hamby
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Tactically Speaking. The high ground is the place to be. And it does confer the advantages listed. The scale used in G.E.V. would seem to allow for some sort of mods for holding the high ground. But the real trick is to keep the supply route open to the units holding said high ground.

Not sure how often, in GEV, that units would have to be resupplied. It would also depend on the operational tempo, and historically, the amount of munitions used by combat forces has been under estimated.

And last, is the time scale for a scenarios such that it makes a difference in supply.

IMHO, if there is a place on the map that the Defender can create a unassailable defensible position. Then victory conditions should allow for the Attacker to by pass the location.

The last thing to remember is that NOTHING flies over the battlefield in the GEV universe. So if someone tries to create said redoubt, They must keep a supply route open.

McK
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Steven N.

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I really agree with Andrew on this one. It's quite true that the high ground would--even in the Ogre world--convey some advantage, but that advantage would be relatively slight. Adding a hex to the range is a huge advantage, particularly in a turn based game like Ogre. And a net two hex difference is devastating to the attacker.

Maybe the extra hex is only 50% attack strength? I have to say I can't see the gameplay advantage of adding elevation. There might be a specific scenario with a specific victory condition that could use this, but as a general principle it seems like it adds complexity without adding entertainment value--and Ogre is far too abstract to worry about making it more realistic.
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Andrew Walters
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Altitude conveys advantageous in range and visibility. The weapons in Ogre are limited not by their physical reach, but by detection and targeting issues, so the few hundred meters of range benefit you get from being on a hill are kind of moot. As for detection, radar and IR have more trouble looking down than up; background and clutter are have a much bigger impact than the LOS improvements you get from being on a hillside.

In any case, if you try one game with rules like these you'll find things work very differently than they do in Ogre. You might like it, I didn't, but they certainly are not the same. The change to the rules is modest and straightforward the effect on the game is neither.

High ground is the place to be, but both "high ground" and the advantage gained therefrom are different in 2081 than 1865.
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Simon Walden
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Sort of agree with all of that.

My logical head said, yes detection and accurate location of units BELOW would be easier, and ABOVE would be much harder (line of sight through a big cliff is tricky

My Map-Bashing head said - my local area that I was modelling does have a dirty great big cliff in it - shame to ignore that.

Yes, victory conditions and/or points allocated to setup do have to be different because it is a big advantage.

Playing it, actually was kind of fun and made things quite different, you get used to reasonably balanced ranges on all the weapons and actually that 20-40% difference between forces means the attacker has to work quite differently.
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Thomas Fuhs
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sqwalden wrote:
While map bashing our local area I had to invent some cliffs rules, so keeping it simple


I use PanzerBlitz boards, so I used whatever rules PzB uses for cliffs ect. Can not recall any specifics as I'm not near my notes. Hope this helps.

Seem to recall the SJ site discussing heights in a discussion of a scenario set on a "Necromancer" map...
 
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