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Subject: Director's Chair rss

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Richard Ham
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Here you can find an ongoing record of the results of viewer votes for games to be filmed and bought with the RRT fund! Feedback or thoughts always appreciated!
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Richard Ham
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MAY 2013 TOP GAMES TO BUY

Game Votes
Through the ages 15
Vinhos 9
Terra Mystica 9
Drum Roll 8
Teramyyd: Earthsphere 8
Mage Knight 7
Darkest Night 6
Eclipse 6
Batman: Gotham City Strategy Game 6
Merchant of Venus 5
Mice & Mystics 5
Dungeon Lords 4
Crude 3
Descent 3
Dragon Valley 3
What's He Building in There? 3
a few acres of snow 3
Amerigo 3
Caylus 3
Creekos 3
Fealty 3
Ghost Stories 3
Myth 3
The Manhattan Project 3
A Fistful of Penguins 2
Africana 2
Antike Duellum 2
Brugge 2
Cinque Terre 2
il Vecchio 2
Maharani 2
Quebec 2
twilight struggle 2
A Fool's Fortune 1
Al Rashid 1
Friday 1
Lancaster: Henry V - The Power of the King 1
Phantom 1
Libertalia 1
Paradise Fallen 1
Relic Expedition 1
Star Wars: The Card Game 1


Based on these results, I'm going to start looking for Through the Ages & Vinhos. TtA is pretty tough to find, but a new reprint is coming soon, so that might make things easier. I'm anticipating less of an issue with Vinhos (I actually spent a couple of hours taking the metro all around Rome trying to pick up a copy last weekend, as two stores websites said they had it in stock, but the websites LIED!)

Of course, both of those games are going to be available to me at the Cardboard & Sand event in August, where I could film them for free, but then, time will be limited during that week, so trying to get a few big games out of the way ahead of time probably won't hurt. Also, I've contacted Artipia games about a copy of Drumroll (fingers crossed) and will have to make a decision shortly about Teramyyd (soooo expensive to ship! Maybe there's an Essen option? Must investigate)

update: 1 last voter came in who I previously though was going to pass on voting, so a bit of a shift bringing Terra Mystica up near the top!
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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Not that it changes the result but The Manhattan Project has two entries.
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Richard Ham
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Ah, the power of 'the'
FIXED!
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Bruno Valerio
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Well i could lend you my TtA but you're a bit off route there

Great game, as is Vinhos from my friend Vital Lacerda!!!

Good luck with your quest!!
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Richard Ham
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And the votes are in for the first 3 games to video for May, 2013!

And the first game to be runthrough will be... Archipelago!!!

With a whopping 10 votes out of 133, this was the clear winner, beating Agricola at 7, Ora et Labora & Carson City at 6, and Seasons & Gates of Loyang at 5 (seems to be a lot of Uwe fans out there).

And the 2nd game to get filmed for May is... The Great Zimbabwe

Coming in at 6 votes, this was the clear winner of the 2nd game vote. And the 6 votes were quite surprising too, because no one voted for it as their 1st or 3rd game. Very strange indeed. I guess Zimbabwe is #2 in a lot of people's hearts!

And finally, for the 3rd game, with only 35 voters, we have a 6(!) way tie, with Agricola, Ore et Labora, Ninjato, Belfort, Among the Stars, and Airlines Europe each pulling 2 votes. So, we've got to go to tie breakers, which reveals that Agricola and Ora et Labora both scored 3 votes in the 2nd round of voters! So the tie continues, only to be broken by the first vote tier, where Agricola got 7 voters to Ora's 6.

So in a photo finish, the winner for 3rd video is... Agricola + Farmers of the Moor!!!

Here's a full report of all the votes, for all who might be interested

game 1st(133) 2nd(73) 3rd(35) total votes

archipelago 10 5 1 16
agricola 7 3 2 12
ora et labora 6 3 2 11
at the gates of loyang 5 3 8
seasons 5 3 8
carson city 6 1 1 8
race for galaxy 4 2 1 7
the great zimbabwe 6 6
belfort 3 1 2 6
legacy gears 2 3 5
trains 1 3 1 5
ninjato 1 2 2 5
navegador 4 1 5
copycat 3 1 1 5
among the stars 3 2 5
key harvest 3 1 4
colosseum 2 2 4
homesteaders 2 2 4
k2 2 2 4
claustrophobia 1 2 1 4
goa 3 1 4
shipyard 3 1 4
dungeon twister 2 1 1 4
fury of dracula 2 1 1 4
the great heartland hauling co 2 1 1 4
last will 4 4
key market 2 1 3
fresco 2 1 3
alien frontiers 3 3
antiquity 3 3
police precinct 3 3
rolling freight 3 3
guildhall 2 1 3
airlines europe 1 2 3
middle earth 2 2
7 wonders 1 1 2
le havre inland port 1 1 2
london 1 1 2
tikal 2 1 1 2
tobago 1 1 2
rattus 1 1 2
walnut grove 1 1 2
atlantis rising 2 2
glen more 2 2
kolejka 2 2
stronghold 2 2
brass 1 1 2
citadels 1 1 2
karnag 1 1 2
railways of the world 1 1 2
carcassonne the castle 1 1
di renjie 1 1
high frontier 1 1
o zoo le mio 1 1
taluva 1 1
trollhalla 1 1
puerto rico 1 1
agricola express 1 1
adlungland 1 1
briefcase 1 1
card city 1 1
endeavor 1 1
galaxy trucker 1 1
garden dice 1 1
gladiatori 1 1
kingdom builder 1 1
nefarious 1 1
olympos 1 1
saint malo 1 1
serica plains 1 1
star wars queens 1 1
ticket to ride europe 1 1
tournay 1 1
the doge ship 1 1
battlelore 1 1
ra 1 1
seeland 1 1
spellbound 1 1
urban sprawl 1 1


For next month's vote, I'll do the voting staggered, so that the winner of the 1st game is revealed before voting on the 2nd, and 2nd is revealed before voting on the 3rd, so there's less overlap between, and votes can count a little more. Look for that to be coming near the end of May.

Thanks for voting everyone, it was fun!
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Tristan Dyer
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This makes my day. I just bought Archipelago yesterday, and Vinhos is on the top of my most wanted list. Can't wait for the videos.
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Manary Corte
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Can't wait for a runthrough of Agricola: Farmers of the Moor. It will be its first review in English!
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Karsten
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Can I "lock in" my vote until it actually gets filmed?
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Damien Cosgrove
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Well, Agricola was my first choice, and I'd really wanted Archipelago also, so colour me happy.

Now to start a campaign for some of the less popular, like 51st state
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Richard Ham
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A skinned math nerd wrote:
Can I "lock in" my vote until it actually gets filmed?


Nice try pal, but if I go down that road, this'll get a LOT more complicated
 
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Darth Ed
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I just bought Archipelago a few days ago myself, so I'm really looking forward to the runthrough!
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edwin bautista
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I'm excited to see you run through The Great Zimbabwe, but i'd prefer you do Antiquity so i can finally get it to the table.
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Shanda Hoover
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Richard, might I suggest instead of staggering the votes that you simply weight the votes. I think this would result in a much more fair approach anyway. A good example is Ora et Labora. With 11 total votes this game clearly should have made the grade sooner than the Great Zimbabwe at 6 total votes.

I propose that a first place vote be worth 3 points, second place 2 points, and third place 1 point. Using this weighted system Archipelago would have scored 41 points and your overall results would be ranked as seen below.


game 1st(133) 2nd(73) 3rd(35) total points

archipelago 10 5 1 41
agricola 7 3 2 29
ora et labora 6 3 2 26
at the gates of loyang 5 3 21
carson city 6 1 1 21
seasons 5 3 21
race for galaxy 4 2 1 17
navegador 4 1 14
belfort 3 1 2 13
copycat 3 1 1 12
the great zimbabwe 6 12
last will 4 12
legacy gears 2 3 12
among the stars 3 2 11
colosseum 2 2 10
goa 3 1 10
homesteaders 2 2 10
k2 2 2 10
shipyard 3 1 10
trains 1 3 1 10
alien frontiers 3 9
antiquity 3 9
dungeon twister 2 1 1 9
fury of dracula 2 1 1 9
the great heartland hauling co 2 1 1 9
ninjato 1 2 2 9
police precinct 3 9
rolling freight 3 9
claustrophobia 1 2 1 8
fresco 2 1 7
guildhall 2 1 7
key harvest 3 1 7
atlantis rising 2 6
glen more 2 6
kolejka 2 6
stronghold 2 6
airlines europe 1 2 5
key market 2 1 5
7 wonders 1 1 4
brass 1 1 4
citadels 1 1 4
karnag 1 1 4
le havre inland port 1 1 4
london 1 1 4
middle earth 2 4
railways of the world 1 1 4
tikal 2 1 1 4
tobago 1 1 4
adlungland 1 3
briefcase 1 3
card city 1 3
endeavor 1 3
galaxy trucker 1 3
garden dice 1 3
gladiatori 1 3
kingdom builder 1 3
nefarious 1 3
olympos 1 3
rattus 1 1 3
saint malo 1 3
serica plains 1 3
star wars queens 1 3
ticket to ride europe 1 3
tournay 1 3
the doge ship 1 3
walnut grove 1 1 3
carcassonne the castle 1 2
di renjie 1 2
high frontier 1 2
o zoo le mio 1 2
taluva 1 2
trollhalla 1 2
puerto rico 1 2
agricola express 1 2
battlelore 1 1
ra 1 1
seeland 1 1
spellbound 1 1
urban sprawl 1 1


Viewed in this manner there are at least 6 games (other than your top two which don't change) that have more of the popular vote than the Great Zimbabwe.

I am one of the folks who got to vote all 3 times and this weighted system would be fine by me. I suppose having subsequent votes be valued less might bother some, but it definitely bothered me that games with more total votes were passed over for the Great Zimbabwe. I fear with your staggered approach I'll end up voting for the same game all three times hoping that it will be on top one of those times. Imagine my disappointment if I vote for one game 3 times and it still doesn't get selected.

As it turns out, with my 3 choices this month the closest I got was with my vote for Carson City. My other choices barely registered. Maybe next month.
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Richard Ham
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The big thing I didn't want to do with the voting was create a system where person X's vote is implicitly 'worth more' than person Y, just because X spent more money. So with the 3 individual games vote system, person X, who paid a lot, has a vote that's no better than anyone else for the 1st game, but has a vote that's much more powerful on the 2nd game, and a vote that's very powerful on the 3rd game. So X can't completely blow away Y on the 1st game, because he was willing to pay more... he just gets access to exclusive additional votes.

I think the staggered approach will help a lot as well, because if you look at the way this worked out, where everyone voted at the same time, a lot of "level 2" and "level 3" voters "wasted" their votes on Archipelago, because it had already been decided in the first vote. But, if they had been able to see the results of game1 before they vote on game2, they could make more interesting decisions... they know not to go for Archipelago, and they know that people seem to have a much greater interest in Agricola, Ora, Loyang, Carson, they would know that Agricola beats all in a tie breaker, etc (which might make them more inclined to vote Ora over Agricola, and would also draw a lot more attention to Carson City, etc.)

I think it'll work pretty well, and it stays away from the "I listen to $50 backers more than $5 backers" syndrome

That said, I'm certainly willing to change if more people would prefer a different system if that's what the majority of folks want...
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Shanda Hoover
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rahdo wrote:
The big thing I didn't want to do with the voting was create a system where person X's vote is implicitly 'worth more' than person Y, just because X spent more money.


Actually, I think that is exactly what happened. The folks who spent more money in order to get 2 votes were able to rocket The Great Zimbabwe to the top with just 6 votes overshadowing the voices of a total of 11 people who wanted to see Ore et Labora.

In the weighted scoring I propose, each subsequent vote by those who paid more is worth fewer points which offsets this imbalance. Additional votes still yield more voting power overall, just not imbalanced voting power in subsequent votes in my opinion.

rahdo wrote:
I think the staggered approach will help a lot as well, because if you look at the way this worked out, where everyone voted at the same time, a lot of "level 2" and "level 3" voters "wasted" their votes on Archipelago, because it had already been decided in the first vote. But, if they had been able to see the results of game1 before they vote on game2, they could make more interesting decisions...


I reiterate, that I foresee folks who get to vote 2 and 3 times will end up "locking in" or re-voting for the same game each round. Since a look at the votes won't tell me who will be voting in round 2 I really can't make much of an informed decision. (For all I know, none of the folks with 2 votes voted for the second place game in round one or even the first place game in round 1.)

If my first choice was Carson City and it didn't win the first round, it's doubtful I'll change my vote in round 2, I'll just vote Carson City again. If it doesn't win round 2, then I'll try round 3. Didn't win again. Oh well, I guess the game I really wanted to see won't be seen this month. Bad luck for me.

On the other hand with the weighted system I am going to vote on 2 or 3 different games and that gives me better odds that one of the games will rise to the top, versus having all my eggs in one basket.

So far I seem to be the only one who is bothered by The Great Zimbabwe grabbing the number 2 spot. But speaking as someone who has 3 votes that seemed like an unfair amount of power given to the 6 individuals with 2 votes who voted for it.

I guess time will tell when it's time for the June vote.

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Richard Ham
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niledesign wrote:
that seemed like an unfair amount of power given to the 6 individuals with 2 votes who voted for it.

Could be, though I look at it as still fair and balanced.

Everyone who backed $5 had equal opportunity to decide the first game.
Everyone who backed $10 had equal opportunity to decide the second game.
Everyone who backed $20+ had equal opportunity to decide the third game.

Also, if the vote had been staggered, 5 people in the 2nd game voting block would have cast their votes to something other than Archipelago. I wouldn't be surprised if under those circumstances, more would have gone to Ora and/or Agricola, staging an upset

Quote:
I guess time will tell when it's time for the June vote.

Yup, let's just give the staggered approach one month (june) and afterwards, if it's clearly not working, we can definitely try a different option!

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My take is:

1. These are games, and Richard will get to all the popular ones (and hopefully even the unpopular ones) eventually, so I'm not going to get too worked up about whether or not the system is perfect.

2. Sometimes I have had zero interest in a game before seeing a video, so having vids of a few games that I would have voted against is not a bad thing.

3. As a general rule, I really like the "try-improve-try again" model, so let's see how June goes.

Now, having said that, I think that spending a little time figuring out what the goals of the voting system are, and then crafting a system that best supports those goals, might make sense.

At the time that I voted, I really didn't understand what I was voting on. And having to vote on games 1 and 2 simultaneously bothered me. (Richard and I had a brief conversation about that.) The whole "first vid, second vid, third vid" thing is (or at least was) really confusing to me. Perhaps because I can't think of any other system I have ever seen that tries to do something similar. I am used to thinking of these vids as a continuous stream, where each is equal to the next (but sooner).

I guess the idea is that 200 people might vote on the first game, and then 130 people vote on the second (each having slightly more voice), and then 70 people vote on the third (each having even a bit more voice). Since that's how the campaign was set up (even if that wasn't really clear to me at the time), it is "fair".

You are right, Shanda, that the "bigger money" people were able to get their choice of Zimbabwe. That is actually how the process was intended to work. Except that everyone had to pick both the first and second (and third) vids without knowing what the first would be, perhaps skewing things. Paying more doesn't give you a bigger voice in the first vid each month, but it does give you *a voice* in the later vids, where fewer people are voting.

If we were starting from scratch, and were not bound by the campaign that was already run, I think I would favor a run-off system with multiple votes for larger contributors. Maybe after the current money runs out, Richard could consider that for next time.

Meanwhile, I'll sit back and enjoy whatever videos show up.

Full disclosure: I'm in the $10 group, so I get 2 votes per month.
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I know it would complicate things, probably too much, but I'd like to see two rounds of voting with the second round being a run-off of the top five (or three?) vote-getters in the first round. Or you could think of the first round as a nomination process or like the primaries in US politics. As it was, there were too many candidates to vote for, and I feel like I ended up "wasting" my votes on unpopular games.

Also, the game I really wanted to vote for (Twilight Struggle) wasn't on the list for some reason. I wasn't sure if I could write it in or not.

Certainly, the staggered approach Richard proposes for June is an improvement.
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angry I just wrote out a post concerning the voting discussion and the window crashed so I lost it all. angry

This is the way I see it (pertaining to the KS). If you didn't donate, you get to sit on the sidelines while $5 (and more) backers get to vote on the 1st video. Then, the $5 backer gets benched while the $10 (and more) get to vote on the 2nd video, and so on for the $20 and the 3rd vid. Richard's modifications for June will implement this layout. This results in this previous statement.

peakhope wrote:
Paying more doesn't give you a bigger voice in the first vid each month, but it does give you *a bigger voice* in the later vids, where fewer people are voting.


This system gives the $20 backer control over ~0.75% of the 1st vote, ~1.37% of the 2nd vote, and ~2.86% of the 3rd vote.

If you are a $10 or $20 backer, then every consecutive month will develop into a statistical meta-game to apply your influence towards one of the popular games from the previous months that haven't been recorded yet.

Granted, you may still risk throwing your vote away to the Independent or Green party if you so chose. Who knows... maybe you'll influence others to convert to your pick. My money was on Kolejka. Shameless Campaigning.
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Richard Ham
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Rustic explains my intentions better than I could, right down to my hope for shameless plugs. I would love it for people try to convince others to vote their way, to put a little more excitement into the whole thing. When I send out the emails for the next vote, I'll include a link to a thread where hopefully folks will go and post their thoughts about what should be chosen and why
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Richard Ham
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DarthEd wrote:
Also, the game I really wanted to vote for (Twilight Struggle) wasn't on the list for some reason. I wasn't sure if I could write it in or not.

That's not on the list because I don't have a copy, and therefore can't record it
 
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rahdo wrote:
DarthEd wrote:
Also, the game I really wanted to vote for (Twilight Struggle) wasn't on the list for some reason. I wasn't sure if I could write it in or not.

That's not on the list because I don't have a copy, and therefore can't record it


so shouldn't Twilight Struggle be eligible for the to buy list?
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Richard Ham
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Definitely. Oh wow, it's not on there!
---checking---
It is actually. But Tigris & Euphrates wasn't, so that's now added too
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rahdo wrote:
DarthEd wrote:
Also, the game I really wanted to vote for (Twilight Struggle) wasn't on the list for some reason. I wasn't sure if I could write it in or not.

That's not on the list because I don't have a copy, and therefore can't record it

Oh, OK. I thought we could vote for anything and, if it got enough votes, then it would get bought. I guess I didn't pledge high enough to have a say as to what to buy.
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